Delta vs UPS Contract Comparison
 

Given the assumptions made, this video seems squarely aimed at potential newhires and recent hires in their mid-30s or younger.

The point that one needs to consider a contract as an "entire package" is 100% valid, and why cherry-picking certain items in other CBAs to compare while omitting others is intellectually dishonest.

Delta has some good things in their current CBA - profit sharing which is worth tens of thousands of dollars *and* is pensionable into their 15% DC, and their DC having 'cash over cap' is another great benefit. Those, combined with other work rules, certainly allow DALPA pilots to 'punch above weight' on income IF they are willing to work.

We've got some good stuff in our contract, too; one might note DALPA didn't compare healthcare, as a single example.

I do think DALPA's evaluation of our vacation article is...lets say incomplete and less than objective.

I hope DALPA gets everything they want in a new contract and more, and that our Contract 2016 helps them get there - that's how pattern bargaining is supposed to work.

Thanks for sharing... Interesting for sure.

One could assume from the video DALPA is prepping their pilots for little to no change in a new contract except for hourly wages.

No amount of money can make a person happy... I fly the richest and most miserable people on earth, trust me. In the long run it is a personal choice to pursue a career goal with whom ever you feel you belong. Although pilots all perform the basic tasks of flying, the scene behind the cockpit can vary from boxes of toilet paper to airborne paratroopers, a billionaire to a refugee.

Finding a place where you 'enjoy' the type of flying goes way beyond making you a happy person rather than looking at what your retirement numbers will be.

Just my .02.


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Wow, that was an interesting piece of propoganda...

I'll take the package - gladly.
 

So many assumptions that don't hold water for "career" comparisons.

10% profit sharing into the future.

All pensionable B fund deposits over IRC limits (and paid out as non-tax deffered cash) held back to provide retirement-esque annuity.

Vacation-vacation-vacation UPS new vacation language = willy wonka golden ticket of trip drops (aka any two weeks of vaca in a pay period and you don't work - period)

Comparison counts on 18%/4.39%/4.39%/3%.... is that even tenable??

I am very worried for my DL brothers.... spin doctors at work.

I would have liked to see a yearly block to credit ratio between the groups presented to decifer who is working more for the $ and by how much - think that would have been a telling story. Also thought they should have looked at min guarantee (65 @ DAL vs. 81.3) as another potential area for improvement. Healthcare premiums and user costs add up over 30 years and it was a shame they didn't include that in their projections - it's a needed item.

Shocking how few DAL guys were wearing their lanyards the last few times I flew thru ATL. I guess the message they want to send to the negotiating table is that its more important to show who their favorite college football team is or what branch of military they flew for than getting a new contract. Still hope they knock it out of the park though!!

I credit over 1100 hours a year without trying. I don't pick up OT, and I don't take JA calls. Plus the projected profit sharing over the entire 30 career of the DAL pilot is too optimistic. I seriously doubt that over the next 30 years any of the major carriers go without a bankruptcy. =concessionary contracts/furloughs, no profit sharing then. I hope they get all they can now, because they will need it in the future. This video was inaccurate at best about the UPS contract. It left out a lot of details. It is surely meant to spin this to the pilot group.

I sure would like narrators voice to be "B#^*hing Betty". :rolleyes:

Having posted above, I'm not about to slam subject video to be "FOS".
I won't, because I don't have anything better up my sleeve, nor have I seen any real comprehensive study that has better info, or is better packaged.

Does anybody remember the AIR, Inc. Airline Salary Surveys from ~ 15 to 20 years ago ? I thought that it was the best study that I'd ever seen, but even then recognized that it was flawed to a certain extent. Then 911 and bankruptcy gutting of many contracts blew the assumed career values to smithereens. Then I recall rationalizing "hey, I'll cherry pick some OPF trips, and move my career value up a few notches."

Then the anecdotal posts that I see here on APC are just as suspect. Things like FO's on same equipment making more than Captains. A moderate seniority SW FO scores a trifecta of more time off, better QOL, and (I vaguely recall) a 15% or more bump in TFP. I don't doubt those things happened, but what percentage of any pilot group will be in a position to consistently score those kinds of deals throughout the entirety of a 20 to 30 year career ? Then, how many people are like the UPS pilot who pretty much flies their awarded line and makes pretty much in the ballpark of ALV ? Any study take those nuance differences into consideration ?

Funny, reminds me of the Air Inc seminar I went to over 20 years ago. I was listening to Kit Darby rant about why would ANYBODY want to work for FedEx. Their pay and pension was far inferior to the majors, according to him. He was quite disdainful, but I'm glad I decided that he was full of BS.

I guess Air Inc went out of business, too.

How do they figure a 30 year career at UPS or Delta is worth over $12 million? That means one would need to earn an average of $400k a year for 30 years which clearly is NOT the case. Very misleading numbers on the career earnings part.

They factor in the value of bragging rights. (at least at Delta)

If you average a 30 yr career at $275K/yr that equals 8.3 mil. For UPS, that avg is probably on the low side. Having 3 mil combined in a retirement plan over 30 years isn't that far fetched unless the market ROI drops to less than 4%.

Have you not heard of "the rule of 72" ? Divide 72 by the applicable annual interest rate (or annual percentage raises in this case), and you'll come up with the number of years required to double your money, or salary.

Since study assumed perpetual 3% raises, today's UPS Captain making ~ $300K "should" start making $600K 24 years from now. Six more years after that should yield a salary of ~ $716K.

Additionally, study considered factors besides just salary such as Profit Sharing (DL), B Fund contributions (both airlines), and A fund contributions (UPS), just to name several. So, the $12M figure isn't too much out of whack.

Probably looking at benefits, 401K, health care, etc. and hopefully salaries will increase greatly over the next 30 years.

Exactly, there is no way a 30 year career at either is worth $12 million...Probably half that number assuming normal career progression.

24 years ago ( 1992 ) top Captain pay at American, Delta or United was close to 200k a year. Today that number is about 250k
for normal senior captains..I highly doubt you will see pilots making 700k a year even 24 years from now. It'll be more like 350k range I assume

Maybe at ups or fedex but I highly doubt the legacies could afford such contracts long term... Would be nice if things remain great for sure..

No, I don't think that's right. I would be pretty darn sure they earn significantly more than that right now, and with new contracts it will be even better. I don't work for either, but at my company, I am sure it is common to earn over 400K, and a good bit more if you're a 777 captain. I think your target numbers are way low.

Ok, the IPA put out a group of slides showing average line pay predicted for this new contract. A 12 year FO is at about 272. A 12 year plus CPT will be at 389. Average the career earnings and you're close to 300K/yr. 300x30=9 mil in career earnings.

Assuming living 10 years after 65 at 126/yr = 1.2 mil in A find payout.

Is it inconceivable that one could not amass a multi-mil Bfund + self funded 401 K over 30 years?

12 is low balling it in today's numbers even if you consider delta guys getting their 65 hour guarantee for a few years.

I disagree. Many captains will reach $400,000 in W2 earnings next year excluding the bonus payment installment, and many First Officers will clear $280,000. The math in the analysis seems to work.

Now, a major factor in career earnings is how well you invested your 401k and B-fund monies. This can make a huge difference between retiring pilot A and retiring pilot B.

Bottom line is, the whole career earnings exercise is a "wag" and not very scientific. Your mileage may vary.

Put the Crack Pipe down. $400,000? Damn, you are out to lunch. How did you pass the Psyc. Test?

Not even close. And by you putting these insane false numbers out, you should be banned from APC.

I've been here 22 years, fly Intl, and will not even be within $70,000 of your insane numbers. So stop lying to make yourself feel better.

Only a very, very few if they who#e themselves out daily and have no life.

350k is probably average for a senior CA at Delta right now. We will have a significant number who break 500k.

Is that figure gross hourly pay, or inclusive of profit sharing and/or DC?

Definitely includes PS. sailing I wouldn't say significant break 500k. There are a few and they are very senior in category which you have to be to get the soft time credit to maximize schedule with minimal work. The top paid Captain at Delta I believe was an MD88 Captain flying BHM type out and back 2 day trips that pay 10:30 for 1 hour block. Add in a couple Greenslips a month and it's very lucrative.

If you voted no on the contract you were among the 8% who are so out of touch with the world in which we live. That's fine though. However, to come on this forum and spread mistruths and blatantly lie says much about your character, or lack therof.

The standard "multiplier" put out by DP and the IPA for years has been 1.15 times hourly rate = annual earnings. Some will only choose to make guarantee while others do more.

The following are facts based upon historical "work rates" at UPS for full time pilots The source is the IPA.

100% of UPS/IPA captains will make more than $292,500.
50% of UPS/IPA captains will make more than $345,000.
25% of UPS/IPA captains will make more than $390,000.

These numbers are not debatable. They are what they are.

Why are you using 2020 numbers?

And the quote was "many captains".

Nope, sport, those are pay rates as of 2 weeks ago in effect since 9/1/16.

80% of Commando's posts are some sort of complaining or exaggeration. Luckily there are folks here to correct him or call out most of his BS. There are guys who come here for the facts. Facts that might help them to make a decision to come to work here...or not. If you are one of those, first good luck with you decision. Two, take commando's posts with a very fine grain of salt.

Have you actually talked to anyone who voted no? I've flown with some and they didn't want more money, they wanted QOL inprovements. I didn't take that as being out of touch with the real world.

But generalizing a group and only caring about $$$ I guess is in these days.

People vote. Have respect for all opinions.

I calculated top pay rate times guarantee reserve hours to come up with annual compensation. That is more realistic. What does a reserve 777 Captain at Delta bring home? Not someone who is picking up overtime and flying max hours. Even so, it probably takes 30 years to hold left seat on a 777/747 at DAL. So unless you one is hired in their 20s, they will never be able to reach top pay. I like the pay structure at UPS, paid by years of service and seat, regardless of aircraft flown.

A more revealing comparison bet UPS (FX) and pax legacies:


Yearly Gross income
Yearly Block hours

Also, Delta guys would be wise to use the opportunity of good times right now to raise their guarantee (60 hrs / month vs UPS 81.5/ cal month), imho.

True words :)

Don't forget with the new Vacation Buy-back agreement, pilots willing to work can make a ton of extra cash. 35 hours paid per week of vacation forfeited equals $42k for captains selling back 4 weeks. BTW, no thanks! :)

...very similar to the way Delta pilots who are willing to spend lots of time on the road can make in the $300's--- while flying even their smallest 717.