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IPA vs FQS positions

Old 12-05-2016, 04:29 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Tanker-driver View Post
.. Here is my feedback: If you are interested in coming to UPS, come here as a line pilot. You WILL have an opportunity to go to management within a couple years of being hired. Spend a year on the line and make an informed decision. I would absolutely NOT recommend anyone take a management position off the street.
Huh? A couple of years? What are you talking about? We get those "promotion" invites every year and they often try to talk people into crossing over while they're still in training..

To the OP:
You're asking a valid question.

Currently it takes ~16 years for a line pilot to upgrade to a captain position at ups.

..or one could say "screw you all, it's all about me" and either cross over from line position to management (one-way street, can't ever go back) or accept a management position as a new hire.

Hope this is "informative" enough.

Don't be that guy.

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Old 12-05-2016, 06:20 PM
  #22  
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If offered a "manager" position, do NOT take it!!!
By definition they are not a manager:
"A person who has control or direction of a institution or business; a person who controls or manipulates resources and expenditures"
Non Union Replacement Pilots (NURP) at UPS are not managers, they are told what to do, have no ability to control or manipulate the company and have no union protection. Just as with the Teamster strike in 1997, they ALL flew strike goods across union picket lines=SCAB.
A "manager" position @ UPS is not a respected position here.
**NEVER accept a non union pilot position @ UPS!!
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Old 12-05-2016, 06:47 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by whalesurfer View Post

Currently it takes ~16 years for a line pilot to upgrade to a captain position at ups.
To clarify his post, the current junior captain is 16 years seniority. Newhires in 2014&2015 were forecasted to upgrade in about 10 assuming the statues quo remained (avg retirement at 63 and 400-something bypass bidders). The new contract and aircraft announcement(s?) will drop that by a couple of years assuming everything else stays the same.
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Old 12-06-2016, 03:27 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by FTFF View Post
Newhires in 2014 & 2015 were forecasted to upgrade in about 10 assuming the statues quo remained (avg retirement at 63 and 400-something bypass bidders). The new contract and aircraft announcement(s?) will drop that by a couple of years assuming everything else stays the same.
Maybe. I'm just giving current upgrade times.

However, I should've said that currently it takes ~15 years for a line pilot to upgrade to a captain position at ups. Seems like APC Profiles have been updated. Remember, 15 years is the the first available upgrade class.

I agree that projections imply a quicker upgrade sometimes in the future BUT don't forget that everyone seems to be projecting an age 67 rule very shortly. Maybe even before the new president takes office? Additionally, the economy is doing ok but that's about it. So yes, these are conservative projections. If I were a potential new-hire I'd hope for the best but plan for the worst, wouldn't you?

From APC Profiles:
"Monthly guarantee: 81 hours*
Reserve guarantee: 81 hours*
(*75 hours per 28 days, converted to calendar month)

Vacation changes: 2 weeks of vacation in a single pay period (4 week period) = entire period OFF, pay protected or Vacation days paid out at 5 credit hours per day or Traditional vacation conflict rules or Vacation week slide to cover trip that falls outside of vacation

Int'l override pay/hr:
Capt/IRO/FO:
$6.50/$4.50/$4.50

Discounted Employee Stock Purchase Program (DESPP) offers 5% discount

Most Junior Capt hired: June 14, 2001 B757/767 ONT
"
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Old 12-06-2016, 04:30 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by whalesurfer View Post
Maybe. I'm just giving current upgrade times.

However, I should've said that currently it takes ~15 years for a line pilot to upgrade to a captain position at ups. Seems like APC Profiles have been updated. Remember, 15 years is the the first available upgrade class.

I agree that projections imply a quicker upgrade sometimes in the future BUT don't forget that everyone seems to be projecting an age 67 rule very shortly. Maybe even before the new president takes office? Additionally, the economy is doing ok but that's about it. So yes, these are conservative projections. If I were a potential new-hire I'd hope for the best but plan for the worst, wouldn't you?

From APC Profiles:
"Monthly guarantee: 81 hours*
Reserve guarantee: 81 hours*
(*75 hours per 28 days, converted to calendar month)

Vacation changes: 2 weeks of vacation in a single pay period (4 week period) = entire period OFF, pay protected or Vacation days paid out at 5 credit hours per day or Traditional vacation conflict rules or Vacation week slide to cover trip that falls outside of vacation

Int'l override pay/hr:
Capt/IRO/FO:
$6.50/$4.50/$4.50

Discounted Employee Stock Purchase Program (DESPP) offers 5% discount

Most Junior Capt hired: June 14, 2001 B757/767 ONT
"
We've been down this road already, no? Using the IPA seniority analysis tool it will take me about 10 years to have the same overall seniority number as that June 14th guy - benefits of a 7year hiring gap. Increase the retirement age to 67 (making new average age that guys are removed from the list at 65), it's closer to 14 years. Single pilot ops is still a long way down the road, the company is in expansion mode, and a Trump administration and GOP congress is going to make America great so for the shorter term future all looks fine for pilots at UPS. That's not even taking into account for the new contract and the new aircraft both of which will lower those times significantly. You are just listing the current junior captain upgrade time and using it as a blanket projection for everyone. It's not that simple.

Regardless, 67 seems to be all rumor. According to this fast read there are no hard plans to raise the age.

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/fastread/2015/FastRead_20150225.htm

Here is the section: (circa 2015-not much else recent)

"JAPAN INCREASES MAXIMUM PILOT AGE FOR DOMESTIC OPS
Japan's transportation ministry has announced plans to increase the mandatory retirement age for airline pilots to 67 years from the current 64 years, which will be applicable only for domestic operations in Japan. Other countries have also increased their maximum pilot age rules, or have entertained proposals to do so.
It is important for ALPA members to know, however, that no plans are being made or even discussed to amend the maximum retirement age for pilots by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), Federal Aviation Administration, or Transport Canada.
As was explained in the November 4, 2014, FastRead, ICAO establishes rules for the maximum age of pilots used in international operations. That maximum is 65 for captains and first officers. Individual states (i.e., countries) that conform to ICAO rules—including the United States, Canada, and Japan—may only exceed that age for domestic operations.
Late last year, ICAO established an upper age limit of 65 years as the maximum age for any pilot in international operations; previously, ICAO had no maximum age standard for first officers but did limit the age of the pilot-in-command to 65. Under the Fair Treatment of Experienced Pilots Act, the upper age limit for all pilots in the United States involved in FAR 121 operations was set at 65. Transport Canada adopted the new ICAO standard for international operations, which became effective November 13, 2014."

And something more recent further denouncing 67: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/may/flight-training-magazine/career-adviser

Last edited by FTFF; 12-06-2016 at 04:47 AM. Reason: Omitted info
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:30 AM
  #26  
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If they raise the age Alpa should rename itself to assisted living pilot association
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Old 12-06-2016, 07:09 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by FTFF View Post
We've been down this road already, no?
Yes. I disagreed with you on this then and respectfully I still do.

As of today the most junior captain was hired in June '01 (B757/767 ONT). That's 15 years!
(..or a measly 1 day if you skip the line and become a NURP. )

The day that number shrinks we'll update it here. However, until then potnential new-hires should look at current upgrade times because facts are better than hopes and wishes.
Note, I agree with you that this is a good gig however I'm a realist and prefer actual numbers.
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Old 12-06-2016, 07:12 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by brownie View Post
If they raise the age Alpa should rename itself to assisted living pilot association
LOL! Love it Assisted Living Pilots Association!
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Old 12-06-2016, 08:32 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by whalesurfer View Post

As of today the most junior captain was hired in June '01 (B757/767 ONT). That's 15 years!

....because facts are better than hopes and wishes.
Your 15 years number is just a snapshot of a dynamic set of data points, like a stock price.

Facts:

Junior Captain today would be a 1178 seniority number with NO bypass bidders.

2562 total pilots - 1178 captains = 1,384 seniority numbers to captain.

1384 cumulative mandatory retirements from today occurs in 2028 (per ST's senority xcel).

2016-2028 = 12 years. This is the absolute max. It cannot go any higher without shrinking the airline. That is fact.
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Old 12-06-2016, 11:00 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by brownie View Post
If they raise the age Alpa should rename itself to assisted living pilot association
I just spit my drink out reading that...hahaha!
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