Cathay SO paperwork
11-22-2014, 09:27 PM
#12
Layover Master
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Seated
Posts: 4,310
Originally Posted by marcal
Hard pressed? If you hear a CX jet in North America I'd say there is a 90% chance if not greater there are "yanks" on board. Approx 250 Americans at CX the majority of whom are us based.
Do they ever hire US based guys anymore? I've been hearing it's all going to this SO route...
11-22-2014, 11:10 PM
#14
Layover Master
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Seated
Posts: 4,310
Originally Posted by Beaver Hunter
Lots of promises and little delivery.
11-23-2014, 05:04 PM
#15
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 49
The problem with pprune is everyone is unhappy all the time so it is hard to gauge an airline from that forum haha
They have only been hiring SO's for a few years now, SO's are only Hong Kong based, and it doesn't sound like the FO window will open up any time in the foreseeable future.
Murkdaddy
They have only been hiring SO's for a few years now, SO's are only Hong Kong based, and it doesn't sound like the FO window will open up any time in the foreseeable future.
Murkdaddy
11-23-2014, 06:51 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,110
CX is nowhere near as bad as PPRUNE would make it seem, however there are many things that make it substantially different from a US carrier. I spent 7 years there and recently left for a US legacy. Not many do that b/c ultimately it is a place that you can stay for a career but there are many, many other options out there.
CX seemed to be a phenomenal place to go when US legacies were not hiring or furloughing, but when the US is hiring, there really is nowhere better in the world.
I didn't see a future for my family in HKG and my family lives in the most junior base of my new carrier, so the timing worked out.
I would have stayed at CX indefinitely had I not gotten on at my present carrier.
CX seemed to be a phenomenal place to go when US legacies were not hiring or furloughing, but when the US is hiring, there really is nowhere better in the world.
I didn't see a future for my family in HKG and my family lives in the most junior base of my new carrier, so the timing worked out.
I would have stayed at CX indefinitely had I not gotten on at my present carrier.
11-24-2014, 12:06 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by marcal
CX is nowhere near as bad as PPRUNE would make it seem, however there are many things that make it substantially different from a US carrier. I spent 7 years there and recently left for a US legacy. Not many do that b/c ultimately it is a place that you can stay for a career but there are many, many other options out there.
CX seemed to be a phenomenal place to go when US legacies were not hiring or furloughing, but when the US is hiring, there really is nowhere better in the world.
I didn't see a future for my family in HKG and my family lives in the most junior base of my new carrier, so the timing worked out.
I would have stayed at CX indefinitely had I not gotten on at my present carrier.
CX seemed to be a phenomenal place to go when US legacies were not hiring or furloughing, but when the US is hiring, there really is nowhere better in the world.
I didn't see a future for my family in HKG and my family lives in the most junior base of my new carrier, so the timing worked out.
I would have stayed at CX indefinitely had I not gotten on at my present carrier.
I personally may consider a SO position in a year or so, but I will not go for that lousy cadet scheme. The 6 year commitment is absurd, and the forgiveable loan is even worse.
By the way, didn't they increase the housing allowance recently?
11-24-2014, 01:30 PM
#18
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Any one open
Posts: 47
I believe the second largest group (Oz the largest) of pilot numbers at CX are Canadian, so plenty of North American accents at the airline. A large majority of the North American based skippers are in point of fact, Canadian.
11-24-2014, 04:37 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: 777-300ER Right
Posts: 72
A little from the horses mouth, having been there for 4 years... And I apologise to th chap that PM'd me for details, I've only just seen it. Hopefully this answers the questions you asked...
As an SO, you won't get to fly the aircraft, only a sim every 6 weeks or so.
Seven years is nonsense. Currently, the FO upgrade is 2 years and 9 months. It fluctuates, of course. 2.75-3.25 being the historic standard deviation.
Aus and UK are the two largest pilot nationalities, with Canadians not far behind. Then there is a smattering of commonwealth pilots from SA, NZ, Continental Europe, etc. and a handful of Americans. Most Yanks are already based in the US, there are only a few who are HKG based. I'd say the flight deck diversity is one of the pros of working here. Makes for good conversation, too.
Now, the biggie; pay.
If you join with an ATP, you'll be given around HK$820,000, which is just shy of US$110,000.
It's yours to do as you wish, but that is the 'bond', which is prorated over 6 years. So, if you leave after 3, you'll owe $410,000.
As for salary, the following are about what my numbers come out with, and comprise of basic salary, flight duty pay (about 10% of your basic, if you work a normal month) and your HK Allowance, currently HK$1000 a month.
As a year one SO, averaged over the year, and including per diem, you'll get $58,000 (US$7500) a month. This also assumes a 13th month payment, which is customary in HK. Without it, subtract about 3000 ($400) from that figure. The SO pay increments are about 10% a year.
I include per diem, as I believe it's usually included on your payslip in he US, whereas we get a cash allowance at the hotel. If you don't wish to include it, take away around 5000 from the monthly figure.
As a fresh junior FO, (call that around 3 years) you'll get around $75000 a month (US$9650).
Within a year of being a Junior FO, you sit another check, which qualifies you as a 'fully-fledged' FO. This is the biggest hike in pay, as the basic jumps up a good notch, and your HK allowance goes from 10,000 to 14,000.
Using the same composition (basic, duty, HK allowance, 13th month and per diem), your monthly average will be around $105,000 (US$13,700).
After that, your basic goes up a few percent per year, and your HK goes to $18,000 after 4 years as an FO.
FYI CX pay 15% of your basic plus duty pay into your retirement fund. You choose whether to contribute 0, 5 or 10% on top.
As your rent is tax deductible, expect your total HK tax bill to be 10-12%, all in. There is a wacky provisional tax scheme here, but that's another discussion.
So, that's the crux of the pay. I'm not claiming them to be 100% accurate for everyone, but they corroborate with my figures, and I've worked a pretty standard roster my whole time here, ie. not dropping trips, and not counting overtime - which is lucrative, but unpredictable.
It sounds like a lot, and it certainly is. Comparing it in any way to US regional pay is absurd. You can only compare it to the majors, as you're flying major metal for a legacy airline. BUT, and it's a big but, the elephant in the room is the cost of housing here. Particularly if you come from the US, as opposed to London or Melbourne.
In my case, I'm now earning what I'd make as a senior 777FO in the states, and it's only taken me 4 years. Great, but it's whether or not if can make my situation work favourably when all else is considered.
If you keep your housing bill sensible, the money provides for a great lifestyle. SO's typically take holidays around Asia etc every month. HK has a great social and restaurant scene, and all your mates live nearby. All of this adds up, of course. But, if your rent is reasonable, you can still take advantage here.
In terms of rent, a 700s/f place in the mid levels will set you back US$2500 a month, minimum. That same place a bit further out, around US$1,600. So, the maths is easy enough to do to see what you'll have left over as discretionary cash. But, the issue we face, is that in order to live in a place where you'd be happy raising a family of 4, you'd have nothing left. Once you break into the 3/4 bed, 1600s/f market, you're looking at 4.5-8k, depending on location.
As most SO's are younger, and without kids, lifestyle is great, as you can cut back on rent or share with a mate. As a long term proposition, using the assumption that most people want a wife and kids at some point, then something's got to give. I believe that this is the bone of contention here - not so much the 'now', but the viability of raising a family here.
The company, I'm sure, are playing a balancing act regarding the HK allowance - in order to give just enough to attract guys, and to stem the attrition. They wanted to put it up (presumably because they require a fair bit of recruitment in the near future) in the last pay TA (only by a couple of grand), but the Union quite rightly wanted it to be kept separate from pay. I'd expect to see a modest increase in it, though.
As for the money, I hope that's been of use. In summary, the money is good. Until you need an apartment fit for a family. Then it becomes unviable. So, place your bets. The company won't want everyone to leave when they hit child-bearing circumstances, but they also don't want to pay the expat housing allowance....
If you're interested in the other stuff;
Rosters - totally fleet specific. In fact, being on the 777 is like being in a different company to the A330/340 fleet. However, as an SO, you're only doing long haul, which limits the rostering damage.
On the 777, I did 2 or 3 ULH a month. 18-23 days off every month. No complaints. As an FO, I'm now a bit busier, but not massively. On the A330, SO's work a fair bit harder. The main gripe, I think, is that there is very little control of your roster. This has a bigger impact on the Airbus than the 777, but we're all agreed on the point. There is talk of implementing a 'real' system, but currently, we're lucky to get more than one of our requests a month. We don't have the 'soft' benefits that come with your complex rostering language. 90%+ of our pay is salaried/guaranteed rather than hourly, so I'm sure the company aren't keen on providing us too much flexibility in that regard.
As for basings...
There have been a decent number of London bases open up in the last year. LAX and SFO have small numbers open now. Bette than nothing, although the company have said they intend to open an NY base. That will be a couple of hundred guys, given how many flights we operate there. I'm not sure how many Americans we have in HKG, but I'm not sure if it's enough to fill such a big base, assuming they'd all bid for it in the first place.
Would that lead to DEFO on the base? Who knows. My guess would be probably.
Would I recommend it?
I'd say it depends. I thoroughly enjoy it here. I love living in HK. I enjoy going to work, and I have many great friends here. Housing aside, I enjoy a far higher standard of living here than I did on $100,000 in the US. My job is about the most secure in the industry, and the flying is to a great mix of long haul and regional destinations. But, it's horses for courses. What I see as pros may not feature on your priority list.
If you are single or married without kids, it's great. If you have kids, I'd think very hard. I know it is a deal-breaker for many. You may be OK when you're halfway up the FO list on 15 grand a month, but as an SO, I believe it would be nigh-on impossible to view favourably against earning similar money in the US. That being said, as a regional pilot, you're earning atrocious money - whereby a raising a family is a huge financial strain, no doubt.
Then again, living in HK is not for many folks, regardless of what they are paid.
Whether or not you would join CX on the premise of getting a base later; I'd say that's probably pretty brave. Timing is everything, and it may work out for you in the near future, but like everything in aviation, anything beyond the near future is pure guesswork.
I hope that's provided a balanced viewpoint. I'm happy to answer any of your questions, so fire away.
As an SO, you won't get to fly the aircraft, only a sim every 6 weeks or so.
Seven years is nonsense. Currently, the FO upgrade is 2 years and 9 months. It fluctuates, of course. 2.75-3.25 being the historic standard deviation.
Aus and UK are the two largest pilot nationalities, with Canadians not far behind. Then there is a smattering of commonwealth pilots from SA, NZ, Continental Europe, etc. and a handful of Americans. Most Yanks are already based in the US, there are only a few who are HKG based. I'd say the flight deck diversity is one of the pros of working here. Makes for good conversation, too.
Now, the biggie; pay.
If you join with an ATP, you'll be given around HK$820,000, which is just shy of US$110,000.
It's yours to do as you wish, but that is the 'bond', which is prorated over 6 years. So, if you leave after 3, you'll owe $410,000.
As for salary, the following are about what my numbers come out with, and comprise of basic salary, flight duty pay (about 10% of your basic, if you work a normal month) and your HK Allowance, currently HK$1000 a month.
As a year one SO, averaged over the year, and including per diem, you'll get $58,000 (US$7500) a month. This also assumes a 13th month payment, which is customary in HK. Without it, subtract about 3000 ($400) from that figure. The SO pay increments are about 10% a year.
I include per diem, as I believe it's usually included on your payslip in he US, whereas we get a cash allowance at the hotel. If you don't wish to include it, take away around 5000 from the monthly figure.
As a fresh junior FO, (call that around 3 years) you'll get around $75000 a month (US$9650).
Within a year of being a Junior FO, you sit another check, which qualifies you as a 'fully-fledged' FO. This is the biggest hike in pay, as the basic jumps up a good notch, and your HK allowance goes from 10,000 to 14,000.
Using the same composition (basic, duty, HK allowance, 13th month and per diem), your monthly average will be around $105,000 (US$13,700).
After that, your basic goes up a few percent per year, and your HK goes to $18,000 after 4 years as an FO.
FYI CX pay 15% of your basic plus duty pay into your retirement fund. You choose whether to contribute 0, 5 or 10% on top.
As your rent is tax deductible, expect your total HK tax bill to be 10-12%, all in. There is a wacky provisional tax scheme here, but that's another discussion.
So, that's the crux of the pay. I'm not claiming them to be 100% accurate for everyone, but they corroborate with my figures, and I've worked a pretty standard roster my whole time here, ie. not dropping trips, and not counting overtime - which is lucrative, but unpredictable.
It sounds like a lot, and it certainly is. Comparing it in any way to US regional pay is absurd. You can only compare it to the majors, as you're flying major metal for a legacy airline. BUT, and it's a big but, the elephant in the room is the cost of housing here. Particularly if you come from the US, as opposed to London or Melbourne.
In my case, I'm now earning what I'd make as a senior 777FO in the states, and it's only taken me 4 years. Great, but it's whether or not if can make my situation work favourably when all else is considered.
If you keep your housing bill sensible, the money provides for a great lifestyle. SO's typically take holidays around Asia etc every month. HK has a great social and restaurant scene, and all your mates live nearby. All of this adds up, of course. But, if your rent is reasonable, you can still take advantage here.
In terms of rent, a 700s/f place in the mid levels will set you back US$2500 a month, minimum. That same place a bit further out, around US$1,600. So, the maths is easy enough to do to see what you'll have left over as discretionary cash. But, the issue we face, is that in order to live in a place where you'd be happy raising a family of 4, you'd have nothing left. Once you break into the 3/4 bed, 1600s/f market, you're looking at 4.5-8k, depending on location.
As most SO's are younger, and without kids, lifestyle is great, as you can cut back on rent or share with a mate. As a long term proposition, using the assumption that most people want a wife and kids at some point, then something's got to give. I believe that this is the bone of contention here - not so much the 'now', but the viability of raising a family here.
The company, I'm sure, are playing a balancing act regarding the HK allowance - in order to give just enough to attract guys, and to stem the attrition. They wanted to put it up (presumably because they require a fair bit of recruitment in the near future) in the last pay TA (only by a couple of grand), but the Union quite rightly wanted it to be kept separate from pay. I'd expect to see a modest increase in it, though.
As for the money, I hope that's been of use. In summary, the money is good. Until you need an apartment fit for a family. Then it becomes unviable. So, place your bets. The company won't want everyone to leave when they hit child-bearing circumstances, but they also don't want to pay the expat housing allowance....
If you're interested in the other stuff;
Rosters - totally fleet specific. In fact, being on the 777 is like being in a different company to the A330/340 fleet. However, as an SO, you're only doing long haul, which limits the rostering damage.
On the 777, I did 2 or 3 ULH a month. 18-23 days off every month. No complaints. As an FO, I'm now a bit busier, but not massively. On the A330, SO's work a fair bit harder. The main gripe, I think, is that there is very little control of your roster. This has a bigger impact on the Airbus than the 777, but we're all agreed on the point. There is talk of implementing a 'real' system, but currently, we're lucky to get more than one of our requests a month. We don't have the 'soft' benefits that come with your complex rostering language. 90%+ of our pay is salaried/guaranteed rather than hourly, so I'm sure the company aren't keen on providing us too much flexibility in that regard.
As for basings...
There have been a decent number of London bases open up in the last year. LAX and SFO have small numbers open now. Bette than nothing, although the company have said they intend to open an NY base. That will be a couple of hundred guys, given how many flights we operate there. I'm not sure how many Americans we have in HKG, but I'm not sure if it's enough to fill such a big base, assuming they'd all bid for it in the first place.
Would that lead to DEFO on the base? Who knows. My guess would be probably.
Would I recommend it?
I'd say it depends. I thoroughly enjoy it here. I love living in HK. I enjoy going to work, and I have many great friends here. Housing aside, I enjoy a far higher standard of living here than I did on $100,000 in the US. My job is about the most secure in the industry, and the flying is to a great mix of long haul and regional destinations. But, it's horses for courses. What I see as pros may not feature on your priority list.
If you are single or married without kids, it's great. If you have kids, I'd think very hard. I know it is a deal-breaker for many. You may be OK when you're halfway up the FO list on 15 grand a month, but as an SO, I believe it would be nigh-on impossible to view favourably against earning similar money in the US. That being said, as a regional pilot, you're earning atrocious money - whereby a raising a family is a huge financial strain, no doubt.
Then again, living in HK is not for many folks, regardless of what they are paid.
Whether or not you would join CX on the premise of getting a base later; I'd say that's probably pretty brave. Timing is everything, and it may work out for you in the near future, but like everything in aviation, anything beyond the near future is pure guesswork.
I hope that's provided a balanced viewpoint. I'm happy to answer any of your questions, so fire away.
Last edited by Papoo; 11-24-2014 at 04:54 PM.
11-24-2014, 05:25 PM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: 777-300ER Right
Posts: 72
Further to add below the paragraph starting "as for the money..."
Who knows what/how the company will think, when large numbers of Cadet SOs have upgraded and have a couple of years of P1 time on 777s and A330/350s, who perhaps don't see a long term future in the company. At this juncture, the first few batches of Cadet SOs have upgraded, but don't have a great deal of FO time yet. There aren't large swathes of newly minted FOs coming through yet. However, the recruitment bulge of 2012/2013 will see large numbers of fresh FOs come to 'marketability' in a year or so. If/when they start leaving, perhaps we can expect to see a change to our conditions. I don't see much happening in the interim - the company and the SOs know that you're not particularly marketable without a couple of years as an FO.
That hen has not yet come home to roost.
Also, my figure of $75,000 for a fresh FO didn't include the amortised 13th month. In which case it should be $80,000 (US$10,300).
Who knows what/how the company will think, when large numbers of Cadet SOs have upgraded and have a couple of years of P1 time on 777s and A330/350s, who perhaps don't see a long term future in the company. At this juncture, the first few batches of Cadet SOs have upgraded, but don't have a great deal of FO time yet. There aren't large swathes of newly minted FOs coming through yet. However, the recruitment bulge of 2012/2013 will see large numbers of fresh FOs come to 'marketability' in a year or so. If/when they start leaving, perhaps we can expect to see a change to our conditions. I don't see much happening in the interim - the company and the SOs know that you're not particularly marketable without a couple of years as an FO.
That hen has not yet come home to roost.
Also, my figure of $75,000 for a fresh FO didn't include the amortised 13th month. In which case it should be $80,000 (US$10,300).
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