Cathay SO paperwork
11-24-2014, 05:26 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by Papoo
A little from the horses mouth, having been there for 4 years... And I apologise to th chap that PM'd me for details, I've only just seen it. Hopefully this answers the questions you asked...
As an SO, you won't get to fly the aircraft, only a sim every 6 weeks or so.
Seven years is nonsense. Currently, the FO upgrade is 2 years and 9 months. It fluctuates, of course. 2.75-3.25 being the historic standard deviation.
Aus and UK are the two largest pilot nationalities, with Canadians not far behind. Then there is a smattering of commonwealth pilots from SA, NZ, Continental Europe, etc. and a handful of Americans. Most Yanks are already based in the US, there are only a few who are HKG based. I'd say the flight deck diversity is one of the pros of working here. Makes for good conversation, too.
Now, the biggie; pay.
If you join with an ATP, you'll be given around HK$820,000, which is just shy of US$110,000.
It's yours to do as you wish, but that is the 'bond', which is prorated over 6 years. So, if you leave after 3, you'll owe $410,000.
As for salary, the following are about what my numbers come out with, and comprise of basic salary, flight duty pay (about 10% of your basic, if you work a normal month) and your HK Allowance, currently HK$1000 a month.
As a year one SO, averaged over the year, and including per diem, you'll get $58,000 (US$7500) a month. This also assumes a 13th month payment, which is customary in HK. Without it, subtract about 3000 ($400) from that figure. The SO pay increments are about 10% a year.
I include per diem, as I believe it's usually included on your payslip in he US, whereas we get a cash allowance at the hotel. If you don't wish to include it, take away around 5000 from the monthly figure.
As a fresh junior FO, (call that around 3 years) you'll get around $75000 a month (US$9650).
Within a year of being a Junior FO, you sit another check, which qualifies you as a 'fully-fledged' FO. This is the biggest hike in pay, as the basic jumps up a good notch, and your HK allowance goes from 10,000 to 14,000.
Using the same composition (basic, duty, HK allowance, 13th month and per diem), your monthly average will be around $105,000 (US$13,700).
After that, your basic goes up a few percent per year, and your HK goes to $18,000 after 4 years as an FO.
FYI CX pay 15% of your basic plus duty pay into your retirement fund. You choose whether to contribute 0, 5 or 10% on top.
As your rent is tax deductible, expect your total HK tax bill to be 10-12%, all in. There is a wacky provisional tax scheme here, but that's another discussion.
So, that's the crux of the pay. I'm not claiming them to be 100% accurate for everyone, but they corroborate with my figures, and I've worked a pretty standard roster my whole time here, ie. not dropping trips, and not counting overtime - which is lucrative, but unpredictable.
It sounds like a lot, and it certainly is. Comparing it in any way to US regional pay is absurd. You can only compare it to the majors, as you're flying major metal for a legacy airline. BUT, and it's a big but, the elephant in the room is the cost of housing here. Particularly if you come from the US, as opposed to London or Melbourne.
In my case, I'm now earning what I'd make as a senior 777FO in the states, and it's only taken me 4 years. Great, but it's whether or not if can make my situation work favourably when all else is considered.
If you keep your housing bill sensible, the money provides for a great lifestyle. SO's typically take holidays around Asia etc every month. HK has a great social and restaurant scene, and all your mates live nearby. All of this adds up, of course. But, if your rent is reasonable, you can still take advantage here.
In terms of rent, a 700s/f place in the mid levels will set you back US$2500 a month, minimum. That same place a bit further out, around US$1,600. So, the maths is easy enough to do to see what you'll have left over as discretionary cash. But, the issue we face, is that in order to live in a place where you'd be happy raising a family of 4, you'd have nothing left. Once you break into the 3/4 bed, 1600s/f market, you're looking at 4.5-8k, depending on location.
As most SO's are younger, and without kids, lifestyle is great, as you can cut back on rent or share with a mate. As a long term proposition, using the assumption that most people want a wife and kids at some point, then something's got to give. I believe that this is the bone of contention here - not so much the 'now', but the viability of raising a family here.
The company, I'm sure, are playing a balancing act regarding the HK allowance - in order to give just enough to attract guys, and to stem the attrition. They wanted to put it up (presumably because they require a fair bit of recruitment in the near future) in the last pay TA (only by a couple of grand), but the Union quite rightly wanted it to be kept separate from pay. I'd expect to see a modest increase in it, though.
As for the money, I hope that's been of use. In summary, the money is good. Until you need an apartment fit for a family. Then it becomes unviable. So, place your bets. The company won't want everyone to leave when they hit child-bearing circumstances, but they also don't want to pay the expat housing allowance....
If you're interested in the other stuff;
Rosters - totally fleet specific. In fact, being on the 777 is like being in a different company to the A330/340 fleet. However, as an SO, you're only doing long haul, which limits the rostering damage.
On the 777, I did 2 or 3 ULH a month. 18-23 days off every month. No complaints. As an FO, I'm now a bit busier, but not massively. On the A330, SO's work a fair bit harder. The main gripe, I think, is that there is very little control of your roster. This has a bigger impact on the Airbus than the 777, but we're all agreed on the point. There is talk of implementing a 'real' system, but currently, we're lucky to get more than one of our requests a month. We don't have the 'soft' benefits that come with your complex rostering language. 90%+ of our pay is salaried/guaranteed rather than hourly, so I'm sure the company aren't keen on providing us too much flexibility in that regard.
As for basings...
There have been a decent number of London bases open up in the last year. LAX and SFO have small numbers open now. Bette than nothing, although the company have said they intend to open an NY base. That will be a couple of hundred guys, given how many flights we operate there. I'm not sure how many Americans we have in HKG, but I'm not sure if it's enough to fill such a big base, assuming they'd all bid for it in the first place.
Would that lead to DEFO on the base? Who knows. My guess would be probably.
Would I recommend it?
I'd say it depends. I thoroughly enjoy it here. I love living in HK. I enjoy going to work, and I have many great friends here. Housing aside, I enjoy a far higher standard of living here than I did on $100,000 in the US. My job is about the most secure in the industry, and the flying is to a great mix of long haul and regional destinations. But, it's horses for courses. What I see as pros may not feature on your priority list.
If you are single or married without kids, it's great. If you have kids, I'd think very hard. I know it is a deal-breaker for many. You may be OK when you're halfway up the FO list on 15 grand a month, but as an SO, I believe it would be nigh-on impossible to view favourably against earning similar money in the US. That being said, as a regional pilot, you're earning atrocious money - whereby a raising a family is a huge financial strain, no doubt.
Then again, living in HK is not for many folks, regardless of what they are paid.
Whether or not you would join CX on the premise of getting a base later; I'd say that's probably pretty brave. Timing is everything, and it may work out for you in the near future, but like everything in aviation, anything beyond the near future is pure guesswork.
I hope that's provided a balanced viewpoint. I'm happy to answer any of your questions, so fire away.
As an SO, you won't get to fly the aircraft, only a sim every 6 weeks or so.
Seven years is nonsense. Currently, the FO upgrade is 2 years and 9 months. It fluctuates, of course. 2.75-3.25 being the historic standard deviation.
Aus and UK are the two largest pilot nationalities, with Canadians not far behind. Then there is a smattering of commonwealth pilots from SA, NZ, Continental Europe, etc. and a handful of Americans. Most Yanks are already based in the US, there are only a few who are HKG based. I'd say the flight deck diversity is one of the pros of working here. Makes for good conversation, too.
Now, the biggie; pay.
If you join with an ATP, you'll be given around HK$820,000, which is just shy of US$110,000.
It's yours to do as you wish, but that is the 'bond', which is prorated over 6 years. So, if you leave after 3, you'll owe $410,000.
As for salary, the following are about what my numbers come out with, and comprise of basic salary, flight duty pay (about 10% of your basic, if you work a normal month) and your HK Allowance, currently HK$1000 a month.
As a year one SO, averaged over the year, and including per diem, you'll get $58,000 (US$7500) a month. This also assumes a 13th month payment, which is customary in HK. Without it, subtract about 3000 ($400) from that figure. The SO pay increments are about 10% a year.
I include per diem, as I believe it's usually included on your payslip in he US, whereas we get a cash allowance at the hotel. If you don't wish to include it, take away around 5000 from the monthly figure.
As a fresh junior FO, (call that around 3 years) you'll get around $75000 a month (US$9650).
Within a year of being a Junior FO, you sit another check, which qualifies you as a 'fully-fledged' FO. This is the biggest hike in pay, as the basic jumps up a good notch, and your HK allowance goes from 10,000 to 14,000.
Using the same composition (basic, duty, HK allowance, 13th month and per diem), your monthly average will be around $105,000 (US$13,700).
After that, your basic goes up a few percent per year, and your HK goes to $18,000 after 4 years as an FO.
FYI CX pay 15% of your basic plus duty pay into your retirement fund. You choose whether to contribute 0, 5 or 10% on top.
As your rent is tax deductible, expect your total HK tax bill to be 10-12%, all in. There is a wacky provisional tax scheme here, but that's another discussion.
So, that's the crux of the pay. I'm not claiming them to be 100% accurate for everyone, but they corroborate with my figures, and I've worked a pretty standard roster my whole time here, ie. not dropping trips, and not counting overtime - which is lucrative, but unpredictable.
It sounds like a lot, and it certainly is. Comparing it in any way to US regional pay is absurd. You can only compare it to the majors, as you're flying major metal for a legacy airline. BUT, and it's a big but, the elephant in the room is the cost of housing here. Particularly if you come from the US, as opposed to London or Melbourne.
In my case, I'm now earning what I'd make as a senior 777FO in the states, and it's only taken me 4 years. Great, but it's whether or not if can make my situation work favourably when all else is considered.
If you keep your housing bill sensible, the money provides for a great lifestyle. SO's typically take holidays around Asia etc every month. HK has a great social and restaurant scene, and all your mates live nearby. All of this adds up, of course. But, if your rent is reasonable, you can still take advantage here.
In terms of rent, a 700s/f place in the mid levels will set you back US$2500 a month, minimum. That same place a bit further out, around US$1,600. So, the maths is easy enough to do to see what you'll have left over as discretionary cash. But, the issue we face, is that in order to live in a place where you'd be happy raising a family of 4, you'd have nothing left. Once you break into the 3/4 bed, 1600s/f market, you're looking at 4.5-8k, depending on location.
As most SO's are younger, and without kids, lifestyle is great, as you can cut back on rent or share with a mate. As a long term proposition, using the assumption that most people want a wife and kids at some point, then something's got to give. I believe that this is the bone of contention here - not so much the 'now', but the viability of raising a family here.
The company, I'm sure, are playing a balancing act regarding the HK allowance - in order to give just enough to attract guys, and to stem the attrition. They wanted to put it up (presumably because they require a fair bit of recruitment in the near future) in the last pay TA (only by a couple of grand), but the Union quite rightly wanted it to be kept separate from pay. I'd expect to see a modest increase in it, though.
As for the money, I hope that's been of use. In summary, the money is good. Until you need an apartment fit for a family. Then it becomes unviable. So, place your bets. The company won't want everyone to leave when they hit child-bearing circumstances, but they also don't want to pay the expat housing allowance....
If you're interested in the other stuff;
Rosters - totally fleet specific. In fact, being on the 777 is like being in a different company to the A330/340 fleet. However, as an SO, you're only doing long haul, which limits the rostering damage.
On the 777, I did 2 or 3 ULH a month. 18-23 days off every month. No complaints. As an FO, I'm now a bit busier, but not massively. On the A330, SO's work a fair bit harder. The main gripe, I think, is that there is very little control of your roster. This has a bigger impact on the Airbus than the 777, but we're all agreed on the point. There is talk of implementing a 'real' system, but currently, we're lucky to get more than one of our requests a month. We don't have the 'soft' benefits that come with your complex rostering language. 90%+ of our pay is salaried/guaranteed rather than hourly, so I'm sure the company aren't keen on providing us too much flexibility in that regard.
As for basings...
There have been a decent number of London bases open up in the last year. LAX and SFO have small numbers open now. Bette than nothing, although the company have said they intend to open an NY base. That will be a couple of hundred guys, given how many flights we operate there. I'm not sure how many Americans we have in HKG, but I'm not sure if it's enough to fill such a big base, assuming they'd all bid for it in the first place.
Would that lead to DEFO on the base? Who knows. My guess would be probably.
Would I recommend it?
I'd say it depends. I thoroughly enjoy it here. I love living in HK. I enjoy going to work, and I have many great friends here. Housing aside, I enjoy a far higher standard of living here than I did on $100,000 in the US. My job is about the most secure in the industry, and the flying is to a great mix of long haul and regional destinations. But, it's horses for courses. What I see as pros may not feature on your priority list.
If you are single or married without kids, it's great. If you have kids, I'd think very hard. I know it is a deal-breaker for many. You may be OK when you're halfway up the FO list on 15 grand a month, but as an SO, I believe it would be nigh-on impossible to view favourably against earning similar money in the US. That being said, as a regional pilot, you're earning atrocious money - whereby a raising a family is a huge financial strain, no doubt.
Then again, living in HK is not for many folks, regardless of what they are paid.
Whether or not you would join CX on the premise of getting a base later; I'd say that's probably pretty brave. Timing is everything, and it may work out for you in the near future, but like everything in aviation, anything beyond the near future is pure guesswork.
I hope that's provided a balanced viewpoint. I'm happy to answer any of your questions, so fire away.
Age limit to join? I am 45 and getting ready to go to apply at the regionals. Got the 4 year degree and good work history.
I am thinking CX would probably take me, but not sure because of my age being so high.
Either way, like in said in my previous post, I will not go for that cadet program. Just no reason to start in Adelaide flying GA aircraft all over again.
11-24-2014, 05:47 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: ERJ, CA
Posts: 718
How much to rent a 3-4 bedroom island house in Tung Chung or Mui Wo?
US citizens who fly into the US may face taxation. I think you have to be out of the country 330 days a yr to avoid US taxes, and then you are still taxed above about 90K.
US citizens who fly into the US may face taxation. I think you have to be out of the country 330 days a yr to avoid US taxes, and then you are still taxed above about 90K.
11-24-2014, 06:23 PM
#24
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: 777-300ER Right
Posts: 72
Originally Posted by outaluckagain
OK, I see the HK pilot allownace did not go up..stil at 10K.
Age limit to join? I am 45 and getting ready to go to apply at the regionals. Got the 4 year degree and good work history.
I am thinking CX would probably take me, but not sure because of my age being so high.
Either way, like in said in my previous post, I will not go for that cadet program. Just no reason to start in Adelaide flying GA aircraft all over again.
Age limit to join? I am 45 and getting ready to go to apply at the regionals. Got the 4 year degree and good work history.
I am thinking CX would probably take me, but not sure because of my age being so high.
Either way, like in said in my previous post, I will not go for that cadet program. Just no reason to start in Adelaide flying GA aircraft all over again.
I think you misunderstand the 'Cadet' title. Cadet just means locally employed, as opposed to on full expat conditions. Perhaps not th best use of the word for guys joining with experience.If you have an ATP, you'll be in Adelaide for 2-3 months. Just pass the exams and a check ride. If you have nothing, you'll be there for 14 months. If you have less than 1500 but more than 350 (I think), you're there for 6.5 months.
As for whether or not they'll take you, it is much more aptitude and interview based than HR. I don't know whether your age will count against you, but I know they've hired guys in their late 30s.
Potatochip - cheers, and the same to you. It's my opinion, but I see DEFO hiring in the US. There just aren't the number of Americans based in HK to fill the demand that I foresee. I think the US is the only base location which has any real potential for new joiners, but I think it has it in spades.
Previous DEFO hiring has attracted guys with high experience, because the US was so stagnant. They were similar to today's Major requirements (8k, a few years TPIC) Now, with the majors hiring, perhaps guys will stand a better chance with a bit less time.
Bedrock - yes, US guys are subject to some fairly unique taxation issues. I don't want to give any advice, other than your 330 requirement won't be relevant, as if you actually lived in HK, a different 'means test' is used to qualify you as living abroad. Which, as you point out, means you're taxable on what you make above around US$100,000.
Tung Chung has actually gone up a lot in the last couple of years, due to the Macau bridge and a couple of local things. So, to me, it's not a great option, as I find it just a bit rubbish.
Mui Wo, a 3 bed, 2 storey place (likely to be the top two floors of a 3 storey village house) would start somewhere around 16k, and go up to 25, depending on location and quality. I'm a fan of Mui Wo.
For the whole house 3 floors, 2100" plus a 700" rooftop, start looking around 30 and up.
11-25-2014, 05:18 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 174
Originally Posted by bedrock
How much to rent a 3-4 bedroom island house in Tung Chung or Mui Wo?
US citizens who fly into the US may face taxation. I think you have to be out of the country 330 days a yr to avoid US taxes, and then you are still taxed above about 90K.
US citizens who fly into the US may face taxation. I think you have to be out of the country 330 days a yr to avoid US taxes, and then you are still taxed above about 90K.
Please consult the IRS website/your accountant to make sure that information is correct.
12-09-2014, 02:06 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Assistant Greens Keeper
Posts: 1,011
Originally Posted by Papoo
A little from the horses mouth, having been there for 4 years... And I apologise to th chap that PM'd me for details, I've only just seen it. Hopefully this answers the questions you asked...
As an SO, you won't get to fly the aircraft, only a sim every 6 weeks or so.
Seven years is nonsense. Currently, the FO upgrade is 2 years and 9 months. It fluctuates, of course. 2.75-3.25 being the historic standard deviation.
Aus and UK are the two largest pilot nationalities, with Canadians not far behind. Then there is a smattering of commonwealth pilots from SA, NZ, Continental Europe, etc. and a handful of Americans. Most Yanks are already based in the US, there are only a few who are HKG based. I'd say the flight deck diversity is one of the pros of working here. Makes for good conversation, too.
Now, the biggie; pay.
If you join with an ATP, you'll be given around HK$820,000, which is just shy of US$110,000.
It's yours to do as you wish, but that is the 'bond', which is prorated over 6 years. So, if you leave after 3, you'll owe $410,000.
As for salary, the following are about what my numbers come out with, and comprise of basic salary, flight duty pay (about 10% of your basic, if you work a normal month) and your HK Allowance, currently HK$1000 a month.
As a year one SO, averaged over the year, and including per diem, you'll get $58,000 (US$7500) a month. This also assumes a 13th month payment, which is customary in HK. Without it, subtract about 3000 ($400) from that figure. The SO pay increments are about 10% a year.
I include per diem, as I believe it's usually included on your payslip in he US, whereas we get a cash allowance at the hotel. If you don't wish to include it, take away around 5000 from the monthly figure.
As a fresh junior FO, (call that around 3 years) you'll get around $75000 a month (US$9650).
Within a year of being a Junior FO, you sit another check, which qualifies you as a 'fully-fledged' FO. This is the biggest hike in pay, as the basic jumps up a good notch, and your HK allowance goes from 10,000 to 14,000.
Using the same composition (basic, duty, HK allowance, 13th month and per diem), your monthly average will be around $105,000 (US$13,700).
After that, your basic goes up a few percent per year, and your HK goes to $18,000 after 4 years as an FO.
FYI CX pay 15% of your basic plus duty pay into your retirement fund. You choose whether to contribute 0, 5 or 10% on top.
As your rent is tax deductible, expect your total HK tax bill to be 10-12%, all in. There is a wacky provisional tax scheme here, but that's another discussion.
So, that's the crux of the pay. I'm not claiming them to be 100% accurate for everyone, but they corroborate with my figures, and I've worked a pretty standard roster my whole time here, ie. not dropping trips, and not counting overtime - which is lucrative, but unpredictable.
It sounds like a lot, and it certainly is. Comparing it in any way to US regional pay is absurd. You can only compare it to the majors, as you're flying major metal for a legacy airline. BUT, and it's a big but, the elephant in the room is the cost of housing here. Particularly if you come from the US, as opposed to London or Melbourne.
In my case, I'm now earning what I'd make as a senior 777FO in the states, and it's only taken me 4 years. Great, but it's whether or not if can make my situation work favourably when all else is considered.
If you keep your housing bill sensible, the money provides for a great lifestyle. SO's typically take holidays around Asia etc every month. HK has a great social and restaurant scene, and all your mates live nearby. All of this adds up, of course. But, if your rent is reasonable, you can still take advantage here.
In terms of rent, a 700s/f place in the mid levels will set you back US$2500 a month, minimum. That same place a bit further out, around US$1,600. So, the maths is easy enough to do to see what you'll have left over as discretionary cash. But, the issue we face, is that in order to live in a place where you'd be happy raising a family of 4, you'd have nothing left. Once you break into the 3/4 bed, 1600s/f market, you're looking at 4.5-8k, depending on location.
As most SO's are younger, and without kids, lifestyle is great, as you can cut back on rent or share with a mate. As a long term proposition, using the assumption that most people want a wife and kids at some point, then something's got to give. I believe that this is the bone of contention here - not so much the 'now', but the viability of raising a family here.
The company, I'm sure, are playing a balancing act regarding the HK allowance - in order to give just enough to attract guys, and to stem the attrition. They wanted to put it up (presumably because they require a fair bit of recruitment in the near future) in the last pay TA (only by a couple of grand), but the Union quite rightly wanted it to be kept separate from pay. I'd expect to see a modest increase in it, though.
As for the money, I hope that's been of use. In summary, the money is good. Until you need an apartment fit for a family. Then it becomes unviable. So, place your bets. The company won't want everyone to leave when they hit child-bearing circumstances, but they also don't want to pay the expat housing allowance....
If you're interested in the other stuff;
Rosters - totally fleet specific. In fact, being on the 777 is like being in a different company to the A330/340 fleet. However, as an SO, you're only doing long haul, which limits the rostering damage.
On the 777, I did 2 or 3 ULH a month. 18-23 days off every month. No complaints. As an FO, I'm now a bit busier, but not massively. On the A330, SO's work a fair bit harder. The main gripe, I think, is that there is very little control of your roster. This has a bigger impact on the Airbus than the 777, but we're all agreed on the point. There is talk of implementing a 'real' system, but currently, we're lucky to get more than one of our requests a month. We don't have the 'soft' benefits that come with your complex rostering language. 90%+ of our pay is salaried/guaranteed rather than hourly, so I'm sure the company aren't keen on providing us too much flexibility in that regard.
As for basings...
There have been a decent number of London bases open up in the last year. LAX and SFO have small numbers open now. Bette than nothing, although the company have said they intend to open an NY base. That will be a couple of hundred guys, given how many flights we operate there. I'm not sure how many Americans we have in HKG, but I'm not sure if it's enough to fill such a big base, assuming they'd all bid for it in the first place.
Would that lead to DEFO on the base? Who knows. My guess would be probably.
Would I recommend it?
I'd say it depends. I thoroughly enjoy it here. I love living in HK. I enjoy going to work, and I have many great friends here. Housing aside, I enjoy a far higher standard of living here than I did on $100,000 in the US. My job is about the most secure in the industry, and the flying is to a great mix of long haul and regional destinations. But, it's horses for courses. What I see as pros may not feature on your priority list.
If you are single or married without kids, it's great. If you have kids, I'd think very hard. I know it is a deal-breaker for many. You may be OK when you're halfway up the FO list on 15 grand a month, but as an SO, I believe it would be nigh-on impossible to view favourably against earning similar money in the US. That being said, as a regional pilot, you're earning atrocious money - whereby a raising a family is a huge financial strain, no doubt.
Then again, living in HK is not for many folks, regardless of what they are paid.
Whether or not you would join CX on the premise of getting a base later; I'd say that's probably pretty brave. Timing is everything, and it may work out for you in the near future, but like everything in aviation, anything beyond the near future is pure guesswork.
I hope that's provided a balanced viewpoint. I'm happy to answer any of your questions, so fire away.
As an SO, you won't get to fly the aircraft, only a sim every 6 weeks or so.
Seven years is nonsense. Currently, the FO upgrade is 2 years and 9 months. It fluctuates, of course. 2.75-3.25 being the historic standard deviation.
Aus and UK are the two largest pilot nationalities, with Canadians not far behind. Then there is a smattering of commonwealth pilots from SA, NZ, Continental Europe, etc. and a handful of Americans. Most Yanks are already based in the US, there are only a few who are HKG based. I'd say the flight deck diversity is one of the pros of working here. Makes for good conversation, too.
Now, the biggie; pay.
If you join with an ATP, you'll be given around HK$820,000, which is just shy of US$110,000.
It's yours to do as you wish, but that is the 'bond', which is prorated over 6 years. So, if you leave after 3, you'll owe $410,000.
As for salary, the following are about what my numbers come out with, and comprise of basic salary, flight duty pay (about 10% of your basic, if you work a normal month) and your HK Allowance, currently HK$1000 a month.
As a year one SO, averaged over the year, and including per diem, you'll get $58,000 (US$7500) a month. This also assumes a 13th month payment, which is customary in HK. Without it, subtract about 3000 ($400) from that figure. The SO pay increments are about 10% a year.
I include per diem, as I believe it's usually included on your payslip in he US, whereas we get a cash allowance at the hotel. If you don't wish to include it, take away around 5000 from the monthly figure.
As a fresh junior FO, (call that around 3 years) you'll get around $75000 a month (US$9650).
Within a year of being a Junior FO, you sit another check, which qualifies you as a 'fully-fledged' FO. This is the biggest hike in pay, as the basic jumps up a good notch, and your HK allowance goes from 10,000 to 14,000.
Using the same composition (basic, duty, HK allowance, 13th month and per diem), your monthly average will be around $105,000 (US$13,700).
After that, your basic goes up a few percent per year, and your HK goes to $18,000 after 4 years as an FO.
FYI CX pay 15% of your basic plus duty pay into your retirement fund. You choose whether to contribute 0, 5 or 10% on top.
As your rent is tax deductible, expect your total HK tax bill to be 10-12%, all in. There is a wacky provisional tax scheme here, but that's another discussion.
So, that's the crux of the pay. I'm not claiming them to be 100% accurate for everyone, but they corroborate with my figures, and I've worked a pretty standard roster my whole time here, ie. not dropping trips, and not counting overtime - which is lucrative, but unpredictable.
It sounds like a lot, and it certainly is. Comparing it in any way to US regional pay is absurd. You can only compare it to the majors, as you're flying major metal for a legacy airline. BUT, and it's a big but, the elephant in the room is the cost of housing here. Particularly if you come from the US, as opposed to London or Melbourne.
In my case, I'm now earning what I'd make as a senior 777FO in the states, and it's only taken me 4 years. Great, but it's whether or not if can make my situation work favourably when all else is considered.
If you keep your housing bill sensible, the money provides for a great lifestyle. SO's typically take holidays around Asia etc every month. HK has a great social and restaurant scene, and all your mates live nearby. All of this adds up, of course. But, if your rent is reasonable, you can still take advantage here.
In terms of rent, a 700s/f place in the mid levels will set you back US$2500 a month, minimum. That same place a bit further out, around US$1,600. So, the maths is easy enough to do to see what you'll have left over as discretionary cash. But, the issue we face, is that in order to live in a place where you'd be happy raising a family of 4, you'd have nothing left. Once you break into the 3/4 bed, 1600s/f market, you're looking at 4.5-8k, depending on location.
As most SO's are younger, and without kids, lifestyle is great, as you can cut back on rent or share with a mate. As a long term proposition, using the assumption that most people want a wife and kids at some point, then something's got to give. I believe that this is the bone of contention here - not so much the 'now', but the viability of raising a family here.
The company, I'm sure, are playing a balancing act regarding the HK allowance - in order to give just enough to attract guys, and to stem the attrition. They wanted to put it up (presumably because they require a fair bit of recruitment in the near future) in the last pay TA (only by a couple of grand), but the Union quite rightly wanted it to be kept separate from pay. I'd expect to see a modest increase in it, though.
As for the money, I hope that's been of use. In summary, the money is good. Until you need an apartment fit for a family. Then it becomes unviable. So, place your bets. The company won't want everyone to leave when they hit child-bearing circumstances, but they also don't want to pay the expat housing allowance....
If you're interested in the other stuff;
Rosters - totally fleet specific. In fact, being on the 777 is like being in a different company to the A330/340 fleet. However, as an SO, you're only doing long haul, which limits the rostering damage.
On the 777, I did 2 or 3 ULH a month. 18-23 days off every month. No complaints. As an FO, I'm now a bit busier, but not massively. On the A330, SO's work a fair bit harder. The main gripe, I think, is that there is very little control of your roster. This has a bigger impact on the Airbus than the 777, but we're all agreed on the point. There is talk of implementing a 'real' system, but currently, we're lucky to get more than one of our requests a month. We don't have the 'soft' benefits that come with your complex rostering language. 90%+ of our pay is salaried/guaranteed rather than hourly, so I'm sure the company aren't keen on providing us too much flexibility in that regard.
As for basings...
There have been a decent number of London bases open up in the last year. LAX and SFO have small numbers open now. Bette than nothing, although the company have said they intend to open an NY base. That will be a couple of hundred guys, given how many flights we operate there. I'm not sure how many Americans we have in HKG, but I'm not sure if it's enough to fill such a big base, assuming they'd all bid for it in the first place.
Would that lead to DEFO on the base? Who knows. My guess would be probably.
Would I recommend it?
I'd say it depends. I thoroughly enjoy it here. I love living in HK. I enjoy going to work, and I have many great friends here. Housing aside, I enjoy a far higher standard of living here than I did on $100,000 in the US. My job is about the most secure in the industry, and the flying is to a great mix of long haul and regional destinations. But, it's horses for courses. What I see as pros may not feature on your priority list.
If you are single or married without kids, it's great. If you have kids, I'd think very hard. I know it is a deal-breaker for many. You may be OK when you're halfway up the FO list on 15 grand a month, but as an SO, I believe it would be nigh-on impossible to view favourably against earning similar money in the US. That being said, as a regional pilot, you're earning atrocious money - whereby a raising a family is a huge financial strain, no doubt.
Then again, living in HK is not for many folks, regardless of what they are paid.
Whether or not you would join CX on the premise of getting a base later; I'd say that's probably pretty brave. Timing is everything, and it may work out for you in the near future, but like everything in aviation, anything beyond the near future is pure guesswork.
I hope that's provided a balanced viewpoint. I'm happy to answer any of your questions, so fire away.
Age limit to join? I am 45 and getting ready to go to apply at the regionals. Got the 4 year degree and good work history.
I am thinking CX would probably take me, but not sure because of my age being so high.
Either way, like in said in my previous post, I will not go for that cadet program. Just no reason to start in Adelaide flying GA aircraft all over again.
Your spending time in Adelaide no matter what.
Never say Cathay will take you, it's one of the hardest interviews to pass.
12-10-2014, 11:23 PM
#27
Atmospheric Penetrator
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 243
As a CX Yank, I'd say you'd have to be nuts to join at this point. Six to ten years ago, when no one else was hiring, it was a pretty good deal. If you look at current wages on comparable aircraft at the U.S. legacy carriers, we're about 15% underpaid. Not to mention that on a base, it's probably the least satisfying aviation job there is, if you actually enjoy flying. The time off and "golden handcuffs" are about all that keep me here now.
On the flip side, if you're under 24 years old and have little to no flying experience, it might be an option. If you want a "free" education and have an interest in seeing the world at a young age, I think it could be fun. You could always return home after six years with widebody international experience. Although I'm not really sure how many U.S. legacies are hiring without the coveted 1000 PIC turbojet. In other countries, (read UK and AUS) I don't think that's so much of an issue.
On the flip side, if you're under 24 years old and have little to no flying experience, it might be an option. If you want a "free" education and have an interest in seeing the world at a young age, I think it could be fun. You could always return home after six years with widebody international experience. Although I'm not really sure how many U.S. legacies are hiring without the coveted 1000 PIC turbojet. In other countries, (read UK and AUS) I don't think that's so much of an issue.
12-12-2014, 03:13 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by Sike
As a CX Yank, I'd say you'd have to be nuts to join at this point. Six to ten years ago, when no one else was hiring, it was a pretty good deal. If you look at current wages on comparable aircraft at the U.S. legacy carriers, we're about 15% underpaid. Not to mention that on a base, it's probably the least satisfying aviation job there is, if you actually enjoy flying. The time off and "golden handcuffs" are about all that keep me here now.
On the flip side, if you're under 24 years old and have little to no flying experience, it might be an option. If you want a "free" education and have an interest in seeing the world at a young age, I think it could be fun. You could always return home after six years with widebody international experience. Although I'm not really sure how many U.S. legacies are hiring without the coveted 1000 PIC turbojet. In other countries, (read UK and AUS) I don't think that's so much of an issue.
On the flip side, if you're under 24 years old and have little to no flying experience, it might be an option. If you want a "free" education and have an interest in seeing the world at a young age, I think it could be fun. You could always return home after six years with widebody international experience. Although I'm not really sure how many U.S. legacies are hiring without the coveted 1000 PIC turbojet. In other countries, (read UK and AUS) I don't think that's so much of an issue.
The biggest short coming at CX is obviously the social and family aspect. Really not a good idea to start a family living in HK.
I have checked things out and weighed one against the other. The money will be better at CX since the oppertunity to make real pay will come sooner than it would at a US regional. Not saying CX pays better than a US major....Just that it will take at least 3 years before I may expect to get hired at a US major.
All all in all, I will stick to the US regional to US major route, because of the downside of living in HK and the not mentioned health issues of HK air polution. The WHO recently stated that air polution causes cancer....which we allready knew.
I don't agree that CX is only for younger guys....but I can see your point that it may be rather time consuming. Years before upgrade is achieved means less time left to get back to the US to start again at a US major.
12-25-2014, 07:33 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 261
What about the 747-8F flying at CX?
Papoo and other CX flyers,
Thank you for the detailed posts. Sounds like the 777 fleet provides good flying diversity. How does it compare to the 747-8F flying and rosters? I realize not a big fleet. Given the fluctuating state of cargo flying worldwide, is that fleet losing pilots to the 777 or is it stable? Is it a popular fleet among CX pilots? Are newhires (SOs or even DEFOs) often assigned that fleet?
Also, if hired onto the 777 or 748F fleets, how soon before you could bid another type (i.e., A350) or are you stuck on your fleet similar to Emirates?
Thank you for the detailed posts. Sounds like the 777 fleet provides good flying diversity. How does it compare to the 747-8F flying and rosters? I realize not a big fleet. Given the fluctuating state of cargo flying worldwide, is that fleet losing pilots to the 777 or is it stable? Is it a popular fleet among CX pilots? Are newhires (SOs or even DEFOs) often assigned that fleet?
Also, if hired onto the 777 or 748F fleets, how soon before you could bid another type (i.e., A350) or are you stuck on your fleet similar to Emirates?
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