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Old 11-12-2006, 01:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Centerline Thrust

This is a subthread derived from "Fighter Pilot vs Heavy Pilot" over in Military Transition. It all started when Toilet Duck posted the following. I have then copied and pasted the subsequent posts including my own question as to centerline thrust and a private response from someone who knows. I encourage other informative perspectives.

ToiletDuck:
I've heard both so long as you end up in the right kind of fighter. You don't want one with anykind of centerline thrust restrictions that's for sure. Had a guy come into the FBO with 4800hrs of T-38 time but SW didn't like it because it was centerline thrust.

AlbieF15:
Unless you are strafing someone in a P-38, I don't know of any fighters that DON'T have centerline thrust restrictions.

Getting your ATP pretty much eliminates the "centerline thrust only" restriction from your commerical multi. I was (lucky/unlucky) enough to get the OV-10 ealry in my career...found a nice FSDO who gave me added the multi to my commercial rating because of it...

1 Seat 1 Engine:
Considering that over 90 percent of fighter guys that apply to the majors get picked up by a major (maybe not their first choice, but a major nonetheless), I really don't think the centerline restriction is a problem.

Also, as Albie stated, once you get your ATP, there is no centerline restriction on your ticket.

ToiletDuck:
Are you guys sure on this? The ATP removes all restrictions? It was a few months back but swear I thought he already had his ATP with the restriction.... I'm probably mistaken as I haven't heard back from him. However I was told, which means I have no first hand knowledge, that the F-15s, 22s, F-117s ect. were not considered centerline thrust because the engines were seperated. True or false? This was from some UPT guys so no telling how accurate it is.

Gypsy32:
F-14 non centerline thrust. Center to center of engines 9 feet apart, why so many spun after snuffing an engine.

Zulu:
As long as you do your ATP checkride in a non-centerline thrust AC (which I'd guess is 99.9% of the time) then the restriction is removed.

As far as the F-15 issue, I can tell you for sure that the FAA considers it CL thrust -- back when I was getting my ratings together and called the FSDO in SAT to ask the question and was told "no problem, the Eagle's engines are far enough apart to make it non-CL thrust," so I drive 90 minutes down to the office only to have the inspector there NOW call Oke city to check their master list, and the F-15 is listed as CL thrust. Too bad he didn't do that when I'd first asked. That's half a day I'll never get back.

Private Response:
Centerline thrust airplanes dont create asymetric yaw when an engine is lost. Only military fighter type aircraft with 2 engines qualify. T-38, T-37, F-15, F-22, F-18, F-14 (extinct now).

The FAA allows you to log multi-engine time flying these aircraft but only classifies these as aircraft with centerline thrust jets. It all goes to the performance of an aircraft when it loses an engine.
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Old 11-29-2009, 09:43 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Can anyone post a link ot the FAA's "official" list of military jets that they consider centerline thrust?
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:03 AM   #3 (permalink)
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It is worth noting that the CL issue for military pilots really only applies to their FAA certificates...ie they may need to get that restriction removed by taking an ATP checkride before applying to an airline.

Airlines will not disqualify fighter pilots who flew a CL thrust airplane, it is a non-issue in that regard.
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Old 11-29-2009, 12:15 PM   #4 (permalink)
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FWIW...when I took the MCI and received my CFI-AMEL/Instrument, the FSDO inspector I met with gave me a temporary certificate for exactly that, "Flight Instructor: Airplane Mutliengine & Instrument Airplane." Unfortunately, doing a certificate search on faa.gov, my permanent license--once mailed out--will have the CL-Thrust limitation added, making my MEI next to worthless.

I used my instructor experience in the EA-18G (a Superhornet variant) for the civilian conversion and cited examples NATOPS including several WARNINGS regarding limited rudder authority during SE operations in afterburner at high alpha. At some point in the process, the issuing inspectors ruling was overturned, thus adding a CL thrust restriction.

I too would be interested in how the FAA classifies CL thrust. Thanks in advance for any input.

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Old 11-29-2009, 12:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Cubdrick,
If your temp doesn't have it, hopefully your permanent won't get it.
Also, I know a bunch of F-117 guys that got their CL thrust restriction deleted because they were able to convince them they have some sort of Vmc for single engine. It's not an airspeed, but an Alpha. Anyways, it was smoke-and-mirrors, but it worked.
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Old 11-29-2009, 12:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuggyU2 View Post
Cubdrick,
If your temp doesn't have it, hopefully your permanent won't get it.
Also, I know a bunch of F-117 guys that got their CL thrust restriction deleted because they were able to convince them they have some sort of Vmc for single engine. It's not an airspeed, but an Alpha. Anyways, it was smoke-and-mirrors, but it worked.
The CL restriction in the actual publication only lists F/A-18A/B aircraft. As Cub mentioned, once the EPE engines went into both the C/D versions and with the new engines in the Supers - the NATOPS properly reflected everything that was required to show that it was a true multi-engine aircraft. My current XO tried this same argument some time ago and made it through the FSDO with resounding results; unfortunately somewhere up the chain old views held fast in his case too.

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Old 11-29-2009, 02:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubdrick View Post
Unfortunately, doing a certificate search on faa.gov, my permanent license--once mailed out--will have the CL-Thrust limitation added, making my MEI next to worthless.
I think you can get this removed by demonstrating the Vmc maneuvers and engine cuts in a light twin, should take about an hour. The commercial ME PTS lists the requirements, but the CFI ME PTS does not...probably need to ask a FSDO about that.
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The list is about halfway down in the document this link opens.

FSIMS Document Viewer
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Old 11-29-2009, 05:13 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Twin Wasp - Thanks for the reference. It seems to offer contradictory evidence to what the FAA actually did.

Rickair - that's what I was thinking too as I read the reference TW posted. I already have an ATP/MEL so the way I read it, I have already performed the maneuvers that would delete the CL restriction.

I guess I need to go to law school to figure this stuff out.

Thanks to all for their input. As confusing as it's getting, I now know where to start the conversation with the FAA!

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Old 11-29-2009, 08:42 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubdrick View Post

Rickair - that's what I was thinking too as I read the reference TW posted. I already have an ATP/MEL so the way I read it, I have already performed the maneuvers that would delete the CL restriction.
ATP is a pilot certificate, MEI is an instructor cert...two different things.

You will need to demonstrate that you can teach the maneuvers for the MEI. Most examiners will have you fly the maneuvers while describing what you are doing. A few might fly it themselves while you talk them through it. It will be very similar to what you did for the ATP.
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