Joining the guard, possible fired from job
10-11-2014, 12:15 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 293
Joining the guard, possible fired from job
I posted this on baseops, but looking for more insight.
I was recently hired back into the guard, had a 4 year break in service but decided to get back in to finish out my time since I had 10 years on active duty. I have not sworn in yet, in the process of getting back in. I let my civilian employer know that I would be returning to the guard part time (4 days a month) and now they posted my job online trying to fill immediately. I have not been let go, yet.. Since I am not in the guard yet do I have any protection against being fired?
Here is an excerpt from USERRA, which covers future service (note 3):
USERRA is a federal law intended to ensure that persons who serve or have served in the Armed Forces, Reserves, National Guard or other uniformed services: (1) are not disadvantaged in their civilian careers because of their service; (2) are promptly reemployed in their civilian jobs upon their return from duty; and (3) are not discriminated against in employment based on past, present, or future military service. The law is intended to encourage uniformed service so that the United States can enjoy the protection of those services, staffed by qualified people, while maintaining a balance with the needs of private and public employers who also depend on these same individuals.
I was recently hired back into the guard, had a 4 year break in service but decided to get back in to finish out my time since I had 10 years on active duty. I have not sworn in yet, in the process of getting back in. I let my civilian employer know that I would be returning to the guard part time (4 days a month) and now they posted my job online trying to fill immediately. I have not been let go, yet.. Since I am not in the guard yet do I have any protection against being fired?
Here is an excerpt from USERRA, which covers future service (note 3):
USERRA is a federal law intended to ensure that persons who serve or have served in the Armed Forces, Reserves, National Guard or other uniformed services: (1) are not disadvantaged in their civilian careers because of their service; (2) are promptly reemployed in their civilian jobs upon their return from duty; and (3) are not discriminated against in employment based on past, present, or future military service. The law is intended to encourage uniformed service so that the United States can enjoy the protection of those services, staffed by qualified people, while maintaining a balance with the needs of private and public employers who also depend on these same individuals.
10-11-2014, 12:35 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,909
Check out the ESGR website http://www.esgr.mil/. There might be some helpful information there. And feel free to share your employer's name...I'd love an opportunity NOT to patronize them for their lack of patriotism.
10-11-2014, 12:57 PM
#3
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,275
Technically you might not be legally protected if you merely express an intent to join up in the future. But what was the precise nature of your "break in service"? If you're still in the IRR, then I think you're certainly protected.
Probably best not to advise employers of your future guard/reserve plans until it's necessary to do so. Unfortunately when you try to give them a long heads up they may use that lead time to screw you.
Case in point: If I have a tentative military duty requirement and give the company advance notice, they'll block me off. But if the tentative thing falls through after the bid and I tell my company "nevermind" they'll put me on reserve for those days (I don't live in domicile...) After I learned that the hard way, I just wait to notify them until it's a done deal...which might be the night before.
Of course the catch is trying to prove they fired/punished you for military duty, and not whatever BS offense they fabricate to justify their actions.
Airlines and fractionals are generally pretty good about military duty...other aviation employers, not so much.
Probably best not to advise employers of your future guard/reserve plans until it's necessary to do so. Unfortunately when you try to give them a long heads up they may use that lead time to screw you.
Case in point: If I have a tentative military duty requirement and give the company advance notice, they'll block me off. But if the tentative thing falls through after the bid and I tell my company "nevermind" they'll put me on reserve for those days (I don't live in domicile...) After I learned that the hard way, I just wait to notify them until it's a done deal...which might be the night before.
Of course the catch is trying to prove they fired/punished you for military duty, and not whatever BS offense they fabricate to justify their actions.
Airlines and fractionals are generally pretty good about military duty...other aviation employers, not so much.
10-12-2014, 08:24 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 281
In today's economy 45 to 55 hour workweeks are not uncommon in the civilian world. If a guardsman is a professional engineer, for example, and has numerous projects in work, his coworkers have to try and pull his weight during his guard absence. After several years of doing so his coworkers might get a little tired of it.
10-12-2014, 11:52 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Center seat, doing loops to music
Posts: 825
hey pitts,
Sorry that is happening to you brother, but honestly: welcome to the often unspoken opportunity cost to the Guard/Reserves. Sorry for the long winded response, but this topic is a pet peeve of mine because it has touched me personally many times since I stopped being a college student. This bag full of perennially-repeating crap of a situation is why I troughed in my younger years and made the Reserves my full-time career instead of dealing with the BS machinations of having to appease two bosses, particularly 9-5 civilian employers.
The bottom line is that you'll have a hell of a time proving you were being terminated due to your military participation. My point to you is that even if you were intent on making a point by pursuing legal action, it doesn't appear as though your current gig is worth sticking around for anyways (judging by your airline aspirations). Frankly, I would have kept my mouth shut about the whole Guard/Reserve thing until you actually had the bird in the hand. Now, as it stands, without formal Guard participation, they could cut you and you'd never be able to argue USERRA. Again, I wouldn't want to work for a place I had to raise USERRA in order to keep my job in the first place.
Aircrew participation in the guard/reserve has always been largely incompatible with non-airline employment. 9-5 employers are the pits when it comes to guard/reserve participation that involves positions which require more than the 48UTA/14AT (i.e. nonner AFSCs). Hell ,even some fractionals like XOJET are giving one of our TRs a hard time and had to get schooled on the deal. I'm glad they seem to be turning a corner but again, I wouldn't want to work for a place that was combative about my military duty. I have stories for days about the scores of employers who groaned about my expanded Reserve participation requirements in the context of attempting to get a job with them back when I was a starving 2Lt trying to figure out what the hell I wanted to do to put food on the table for a living for the next 30 years. I'm frankly much better off having bummed/troughed instead of having worked for them. I make a hell of a lot more and with better benefits on the mil side. I'm also on track to a dignified retirement as opposed to the joke that is a 401k in a Country of decreasing National Median wage.
As far as your situation, personally I would have never allowed such a long break in service after separating from AD, but I respect that everybody has their personal reasons for doing what they do. I don't blame ya for not looking at the reserve side of your prior MWS (I'm right there with ya). That said, I understand you need to keep your turbine recency and the RPA gig won't do that for you. What the RPA will do is get you PAID, and stay local. That's the bottom line. When you do get picked up by mainline, these issues will go away. The bigger the employer, the less the issues that arise with Reserve aircrew participation. Which is why airline work is the only kind of civilian employment I'd actually consider if I ever chose to endure the kabuki of stroking two bosses.
Forget the money for a second, get yourself a mickey mouse regional job and mil drop the snot out of it with the RPA gig. I know a guy who's not even been at XJT for 6 months and he's already hiding in guam making the kind of cheese that actually covers bills and family life. I mean, this whole pantomime is a known quantity and the regional could care less. Personally, if I had a manned TR gig I wouldn't even mess with a regional, but I digress.
Keep the currency that way and thus afford yourself the mainline waiting game. Forget the machinations of small employers. If that is truly where you wanted to build lasting roots in, you wouldn't be pursuing reserve work in the first place, even under the guise of salvaging your prior active duty time for Res retirement at 60.
Good luck man. I hope things turn for ya on the airline front soon.
When I interviewed for an assistant professorship (tenure track) at a undisclosed 4-year college in the SE, the expectation became that they really could care less what I did with my weekends, but M-F bankers hours were sacrosanct to them. The joke? I made more part-time as a trougher LT flying the bomber on my own custom Burger King schedule than what I would've made commuting to this BS civilian job with a 6 year (that's right, 6 year) tenure probationary period plus whatever chicken scratch I would have made min running the unit on the weekends. Yeah buddy.
That's when the light went on in my head and said to myself, we're fudged as a Country when a part-time worker in the military can make a living wage and a full time college teacher can't beat it. So to address what I bolded above: Whatever. The game is Chess, it ain't checkers. Daddy's gotta get paid. I don't have the time to be a martyr and run around like a chicken with the head cut off, self-righteous delict claim in one hand and a coffee-stained copy of USERRA in my backpocket. In the words of John Reuben: Make money money Make money money monAY!
Sorry that is happening to you brother, but honestly: welcome to the often unspoken opportunity cost to the Guard/Reserves. Sorry for the long winded response, but this topic is a pet peeve of mine because it has touched me personally many times since I stopped being a college student. This bag full of perennially-repeating crap of a situation is why I troughed in my younger years and made the Reserves my full-time career instead of dealing with the BS machinations of having to appease two bosses, particularly 9-5 civilian employers.
The bottom line is that you'll have a hell of a time proving you were being terminated due to your military participation. My point to you is that even if you were intent on making a point by pursuing legal action, it doesn't appear as though your current gig is worth sticking around for anyways (judging by your airline aspirations). Frankly, I would have kept my mouth shut about the whole Guard/Reserve thing until you actually had the bird in the hand. Now, as it stands, without formal Guard participation, they could cut you and you'd never be able to argue USERRA. Again, I wouldn't want to work for a place I had to raise USERRA in order to keep my job in the first place.
Aircrew participation in the guard/reserve has always been largely incompatible with non-airline employment. 9-5 employers are the pits when it comes to guard/reserve participation that involves positions which require more than the 48UTA/14AT (i.e. nonner AFSCs). Hell ,even some fractionals like XOJET are giving one of our TRs a hard time and had to get schooled on the deal. I'm glad they seem to be turning a corner but again, I wouldn't want to work for a place that was combative about my military duty. I have stories for days about the scores of employers who groaned about my expanded Reserve participation requirements in the context of attempting to get a job with them back when I was a starving 2Lt trying to figure out what the hell I wanted to do to put food on the table for a living for the next 30 years. I'm frankly much better off having bummed/troughed instead of having worked for them. I make a hell of a lot more and with better benefits on the mil side. I'm also on track to a dignified retirement as opposed to the joke that is a 401k in a Country of decreasing National Median wage.
As far as your situation, personally I would have never allowed such a long break in service after separating from AD, but I respect that everybody has their personal reasons for doing what they do. I don't blame ya for not looking at the reserve side of your prior MWS (I'm right there with ya). That said, I understand you need to keep your turbine recency and the RPA gig won't do that for you. What the RPA will do is get you PAID, and stay local. That's the bottom line. When you do get picked up by mainline, these issues will go away. The bigger the employer, the less the issues that arise with Reserve aircrew participation. Which is why airline work is the only kind of civilian employment I'd actually consider if I ever chose to endure the kabuki of stroking two bosses.
Forget the money for a second, get yourself a mickey mouse regional job and mil drop the snot out of it with the RPA gig. I know a guy who's not even been at XJT for 6 months and he's already hiding in guam making the kind of cheese that actually covers bills and family life. I mean, this whole pantomime is a known quantity and the regional could care less. Personally, if I had a manned TR gig I wouldn't even mess with a regional, but I digress.
Keep the currency that way and thus afford yourself the mainline waiting game. Forget the machinations of small employers. If that is truly where you wanted to build lasting roots in, you wouldn't be pursuing reserve work in the first place, even under the guise of salvaging your prior active duty time for Res retirement at 60.
Good luck man. I hope things turn for ya on the airline front soon.
Originally Posted by F4E Mx
In today's economy 45 to 55 hour workweeks are not uncommon in the civilian world. If a guardsman is a professional engineer, for example, and has numerous projects in work, his coworkers have to try and pull his weight during his guard absence. After several years of doing so his coworkers might get a little tired of it.
That's when the light went on in my head and said to myself, we're fudged as a Country when a part-time worker in the military can make a living wage and a full time college teacher can't beat it. So to address what I bolded above: Whatever. The game is Chess, it ain't checkers. Daddy's gotta get paid. I don't have the time to be a martyr and run around like a chicken with the head cut off, self-righteous delict claim in one hand and a coffee-stained copy of USERRA in my backpocket. In the words of John Reuben: Make money money Make money money monAY!
10-13-2014, 09:28 AM
#6
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Posts: 3,543
Originally Posted by TED74
Check out the ESGR website Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve > Home. There might be some helpful information there. And feel free to share your employer's name...I'd love an opportunity NOT to patronize them for their lack of patriotism.
10-13-2014, 05:13 PM
#7
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,275
All these issues are why I work for airlines, not 9-5, corporate, etc.
Most employers only hire people who they need, who then become important cogs in the machine, and are therefore missed when they're gone.
In the airlines I'm a mass-produced cog identical to all the others, and easily replaced without my boss even knowing I'm gone. Anonymity is beautiful thing...
Most employers only hire people who they need, who then become important cogs in the machine, and are therefore missed when they're gone.
In the airlines I'm a mass-produced cog identical to all the others, and easily replaced without my boss even knowing I'm gone. Anonymity is beautiful thing...
10-14-2014, 11:35 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: long haul
Posts: 126
Excellent advice
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
Forget the money for a second, get yourself a mickey mouse regional job and mil drop the snot out of it with the RPA gig. I know a guy who's not even been at XJT for 6 months and he's already hiding in guam making the kind of cheese that actually covers bills and family life. I mean, this whole pantomime is a known quantity and the regional could care less. Personally, if I had a manned TR gig I wouldn't even mess with a regional, but I digress.
Keep the currency that way and thus afford yourself the mainline waiting game. Forget the machinations of small employers. If that is truly where you wanted to build lasting roots in, you wouldn't be pursuing reserve work in the first place, even under the guise of salvaging your prior active duty time for Res retirement at 60.
10-14-2014, 12:00 PM
#9
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,275
Originally Posted by pony172
Hindsight is giving you some excellent advice. Many of my Lt - Maj's are doing this exact thing or are in the process. I have done it myself. Do the regional for currency. Rpa- for money,home time, and retirement. You'll be a lot happier with a foot on both sides of the fence.
10-15-2014, 12:02 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 293
Thanks all, just FYI I don't have a corporate desk job, I have a corporate flying job but only work about 8-10 days a month, salaried, and better pay than a RJ captain. I have enough free time to do the guard thing and want to finish out my time. I didn't want to wait 4 years to get back in, but just crummy timing has played a big part in it all. My local guard unit lost their A-10s to get RPAs and they are just now in the process of starting to hire. When I got out of AD, they wouldn't take me since I didn't have a fighter background. I really did not want to commute somewhere else for a guard/reserve gig.
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