First Regional to sponsor work visas?
05-28-2015, 09:38 AM
#21
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by Pogey Bait
Do you have any idea how much money a regional pilot in the US makes? Your wife better plan on having a good job if you plan on feeding two kids?
05-28-2015, 09:49 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,940
Originally Posted by Snarge
next step... break the unions.
The truth is unions (or associations for those airlines that don't have unions) do just as much to keep pilots in line, more so than a company could ever do.
Today when something goes wrong, unions are sued etc.. or have to worry about arbitrations and timelines, or violating contracts.
This is an honest question which I have no idea of the answer.
What if a regional airline dumped their union and did not form any other type of association to speak collectively on behalf of the pilots? What would happen? What would happen if 20 pilots just decided to call in sick as a work action. Or 30 pilots or 40. Who does the company complain too? Do they sue an individual pilot for not coming to work? Do they fire the entire group?
Think about it. Since you have nothing as a regional pilot anyway, I hypothesize things could be better altogether for a unionless group. My argument is the union keeps you inline better than the company ever could.
05-28-2015, 11:06 AM
#25
Jet Jockey Junkie
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: F.O.
Posts: 231
Originally Posted by germanaviator
Lot's of interesting views here. Thanks. I don't see lot's of foreign pilots flocking to the US to fly for the regionals. Most developing countries (China, India etc) need all the new pilots they can get. Most experienced pilots anywhere in the world make more than they would as an F/O in the US.
The way I see it: The regionals will have to increase pay significantly, but the positive effects won't be immediate and therefore the airlines may have to start being inventive when it comes to filling those gaps. I agree with those who have said that foreign pilots won't be the solution to the looming regional pilot shortage but they might be a mitigating factor.
Personally, I would like to do it for the (life) experience, but not at current first year F/O pay. I would prefer working for a good fractional or corporate operator but I think those are far from facing a pilot shortage. In any event it would be like a sabbatical for me and it would mean a pay cut. But life is not all about the money.
It's true that a regional airline sponsored work visa might not fit in with the current visa structure because H-1B visas require at least a bachelor degree as far as I can tell.
One poster commented on the better pay and training in the US vs. the EU but I am not sure he was comparing apples and apples. Airlines such as BA and Lufthansa have excellent training and most Legacies still have very good pay.
Sure, there are some low cost, regional and air taxi operators that offer neither decent pay nor quality training. NetJets in Europe for example is similar in pay and training to NetJets US. Lufthansa CityLine is probably the best-paying regional in the world.
The way I see it: The regionals will have to increase pay significantly, but the positive effects won't be immediate and therefore the airlines may have to start being inventive when it comes to filling those gaps. I agree with those who have said that foreign pilots won't be the solution to the looming regional pilot shortage but they might be a mitigating factor.
Personally, I would like to do it for the (life) experience, but not at current first year F/O pay. I would prefer working for a good fractional or corporate operator but I think those are far from facing a pilot shortage. In any event it would be like a sabbatical for me and it would mean a pay cut. But life is not all about the money.
It's true that a regional airline sponsored work visa might not fit in with the current visa structure because H-1B visas require at least a bachelor degree as far as I can tell.
One poster commented on the better pay and training in the US vs. the EU but I am not sure he was comparing apples and apples. Airlines such as BA and Lufthansa have excellent training and most Legacies still have very good pay.
Sure, there are some low cost, regional and air taxi operators that offer neither decent pay nor quality training. NetJets in Europe for example is similar in pay and training to NetJets US. Lufthansa CityLine is probably the best-paying regional in the world.
In Europe if you have not been to the right flight school nor have a type rating with 500 hours on type, forget it.
I know 5000 hour turboprop pilots in Europe who cannot get an airline gig, mainline, LCC or regional due to the 500 hours on type rubbish.
The other is Pay to Fly (P2F) that European pilots love prostituting themselves out for and the carriers are milking it.
They hire 20 year olds out of Oxford aviation who have paid for a type rating rather than a 5000 hour turbo prop pilot with real worl GA experience.
I know this because Im South African, Australian and EASA/JAA licenced with ATPL. It is disgusting how they treat pilots in Europe and allow these P2F schemes to go ahead.
So believe me when I tell you for 22K a European pilot will sell his soul and his mother to get that precious 500 hours on a jet type for 2 reasons.
1. To actually fly the type in Europe such as a ERJ 175
2. Join somebody like Emirates because they will not look at a 8000 hour king air pilot but will take a 1000 hour ERJ pilot due to weight category(over 25 tons), glass cockpit and jet time.
I have taken a job with a regional as an Australian citizen because there is a visa (E3) that allows us to work in the US and which I qualify for. I have a 4 year BSc Comp Science degree.
I also want to live there and commit my future to the US.
The pay is rubbish to start but my wife also works(60k plus salary) and it is the first year that will hurt the most, after that we will be fine
Egg320 is online now Report Post
05-28-2015, 11:11 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 926
We don't have to worry about many foreign (specifically EU) pilots beating down the regional's doors for a job. Most people with times that would be competitive or even meet mins at a regional airline would be able to land a far better paying job in a mainline aircraft oversees for three times the compensation.
There may be exceptions, as stated above, but I can't imagine that the number would be anything that would make any sort of a difference.
There may be exceptions, as stated above, but I can't imagine that the number would be anything that would make any sort of a difference.
05-28-2015, 12:06 PM
#28
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 12
Actually, the saffer is right.
If you go on pprune you will see that he is not mistaken.
It is insane, you have guys that have thousands of hours on turbo props but they can't make it to the next level; as many of the 737/a320 operators out there prefer to hire integrated (think part 141) graduates from a handful of schools with about 250 hours TT. So egg320 makes a very valid point.
If you go on pprune you will see that he is not mistaken.
It is insane, you have guys that have thousands of hours on turbo props but they can't make it to the next level; as many of the 737/a320 operators out there prefer to hire integrated (think part 141) graduates from a handful of schools with about 250 hours TT. So egg320 makes a very valid point.
05-28-2015, 02:54 PM
#29
Jet Jockey Junkie
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: F.O.
Posts: 231
Originally Posted by SilkyD
Actually, the saffer is right.
If you go on pprune you will see that he is not mistaken.
It is insane, you have guys that have thousands of hours on turbo props but they can't make it to the next level; as many of the 737/a320 operators out there prefer to hire integrated (think part 141) graduates from a handful of schools with about 250 hours TT. So egg320 makes a very valid point.
If you go on pprune you will see that he is not mistaken.
It is insane, you have guys that have thousands of hours on turbo props but they can't make it to the next level; as many of the 737/a320 operators out there prefer to hire integrated (think part 141) graduates from a handful of schools with about 250 hours TT. So egg320 makes a very valid point.
What I love about places like the U.S. And South Africa is they value experience in airlines regardless of type. They appreciate ME time on turboprops, bush flying, charter etc.
Europe is nothing more than a giant P2f scam. I know 20 year olds in A320 with 250 hours total because they did an integrated course with type rating through a school that has a deal with European carriers to train pilots according to their SOP,s but in turn the carriers only hire from those schools.
So if you did not train at Oxford aviation, CTC wings, Jerez in Spain etc you are basically cut out of the job market. In the U.S. The pilots would burn the industry to the ground if that happened to them and I really respect the U.S. Aviation community for that and want to be part of it.
I have been offered a golden opportunity and plan to grab it with both hands and commit my future to US aviation.
05-28-2015, 05:19 PM
#30
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Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: CFI/II/MEI
Posts: 481
Originally Posted by Egg320
Yes I'm glad you understand the situation. By the way I'm a 4100 hour pilot with 3100 twin turbine including A320 rating and King Air and I can't get a job in Europe.
What I love about places like the U.S. And South Africa is they value experience in airlines regardless of type. They appreciate ME time on turboprops, bush flying, charter etc.
Europe is nothing more than a giant P2f scam. I know 20 year olds in A320 with 250 hours total because they did an integrated course with type rating through a school that has a deal with European carriers to train pilots according to their SOP,s but in turn the carriers only hire from those schools.
So if you did not train at Oxford aviation, CTC wings, Jerez in Spain etc you are basically cut out of the job market. In the U.S. The pilots would burn the industry to the ground if that happened to them and I really respect the U.S. Aviation community for that and want to be part of it.
I have been offered a golden opportunity and plan to grab it with both hands and commit my future to US aviation.
What I love about places like the U.S. And South Africa is they value experience in airlines regardless of type. They appreciate ME time on turboprops, bush flying, charter etc.
Europe is nothing more than a giant P2f scam. I know 20 year olds in A320 with 250 hours total because they did an integrated course with type rating through a school that has a deal with European carriers to train pilots according to their SOP,s but in turn the carriers only hire from those schools.
So if you did not train at Oxford aviation, CTC wings, Jerez in Spain etc you are basically cut out of the job market. In the U.S. The pilots would burn the industry to the ground if that happened to them and I really respect the U.S. Aviation community for that and want to be part of it.
I have been offered a golden opportunity and plan to grab it with both hands and commit my future to US aviation.
I don't see it being a complete ban on people building time in a non jet, but just making it a lot harder to break into the industry than it is now. I cold totally see majors being like candidate A has a degree from X $250 pilot mill 5000 hours, 4800 hours in an E 175 and Candidate B only has a degree from University of Y state in engineering and 5000 hours, but only 2500 in a jet, let's hire candidate A!
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