No Weather Reporting/Determining VFR
08-17-2016, 06:29 PM
#1
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No Weather Reporting/Determining VFR
Ok, so I've never really worked with an airfield that had 0 weather reporting capabilities whatsoever, so I suppose I have a bit of a hypothetical that I cannot find an answer to in the FAR.
Airport is uncontrolled, class E to 700', under a 2100' shelf of a nearby class C airport.
So my question is: how would one go about officially determining the ceiling and vis for the purposes of designating VFR vs IFR? A pilot would need 1,000' and 3, and to maintain VFR cloud clearances. If flying a pattern only, it could be done at 500' with proper cloud clearances, but how do you go about making sure its legally 1,000' and 3 miles without a computer or weather observer saying so? Is the pilot then the weather authority from their observation on the ground, lacking any other options? Use the ATIS from the class C airport 6 miles away?
91.155 (b) (2) seems to allow operating an airplane in class G (which you would be, at a 500' pattern) within 1/2 mile of the runway when visibility is between 1 and 3 miles, and the pilot maintains clear of clouds.
Can anyone help clear this up for me? Not trying to take any risky flights or push any limits, but would like to know I'm not doing something wrong in this new (no wx reporting) environment. Sorry my post isn't put together great, been a long day...
Airport is uncontrolled, class E to 700', under a 2100' shelf of a nearby class C airport.
So my question is: how would one go about officially determining the ceiling and vis for the purposes of designating VFR vs IFR? A pilot would need 1,000' and 3, and to maintain VFR cloud clearances. If flying a pattern only, it could be done at 500' with proper cloud clearances, but how do you go about making sure its legally 1,000' and 3 miles without a computer or weather observer saying so? Is the pilot then the weather authority from their observation on the ground, lacking any other options? Use the ATIS from the class C airport 6 miles away?
91.155 (b) (2) seems to allow operating an airplane in class G (which you would be, at a 500' pattern) within 1/2 mile of the runway when visibility is between 1 and 3 miles, and the pilot maintains clear of clouds.
Can anyone help clear this up for me? Not trying to take any risky flights or push any limits, but would like to know I'm not doing something wrong in this new (no wx reporting) environment. Sorry my post isn't put together great, been a long day...
08-17-2016, 08:48 PM
#2
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Why would you be flying a 500' pattern? Ought you not comply with the established traffic pattern altitude for your destination field, typically 800' or 1,000' at a minimum?
Operating in a no-weather-reporting environment isn't new; it's been the norm for over a hundred years. The difference today is that you have all sorts of additional information available from various functions such as The Weather Channel app to nearby weather reporting, and area forecasts and reports.
Are you asking in the context of making a Part 121 flight or 135 flight with associated weather requirements, or is this a student pilot type question? If it's associated with Part 121 or 135, your operations specifications will determine this for you. If it's a student question, the basic answer is to use all the weather information available.
If you're flying into weather that's so low you're trying to fly a 500' pattern to stay VFR, then go IFR and save everyone the trouble. You shouldn't be poking around in low visibility close to the airport at 500'.
Operating in a no-weather-reporting environment isn't new; it's been the norm for over a hundred years. The difference today is that you have all sorts of additional information available from various functions such as The Weather Channel app to nearby weather reporting, and area forecasts and reports.
Are you asking in the context of making a Part 121 flight or 135 flight with associated weather requirements, or is this a student pilot type question? If it's associated with Part 121 or 135, your operations specifications will determine this for you. If it's a student question, the basic answer is to use all the weather information available.
If you're flying into weather that's so low you're trying to fly a 500' pattern to stay VFR, then go IFR and save everyone the trouble. You shouldn't be poking around in low visibility close to the airport at 500'.
08-18-2016, 03:41 AM
#3
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Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. This is hypothetical only, and would be regarding a part 91 (non-student) pattern only flight.
Why would you fly a 500' pattern? Well, you wouldn't necessarily need to fly that low, you are in class G up to 700'AGL, so you could go up that high. Also, do you not do the same thing when circling? Yes. So if you're good to circle out of an approach with clouds presumably right on top of you (if its down to mins), and up to 1.3 miles from the runway, you're saying its not safe to do the same basic maneuver 200' higher, with clouds 300' above you, and within 1/2 mile of the runway?
Vis hasn't really been the problem out here, mainly the ceiling. But what I'm trying to find out I guess is if the pilot goes out to the airport and the ceiling appears to be 1,500', so he goes and flies a few patterns, what's to stop an FAA guy from showing up and saying, "nope, looks like 999' ceiling to me." How could the pilot CYA without an official weather report?
Why would you fly a 500' pattern? Well, you wouldn't necessarily need to fly that low, you are in class G up to 700'AGL, so you could go up that high. Also, do you not do the same thing when circling? Yes. So if you're good to circle out of an approach with clouds presumably right on top of you (if its down to mins), and up to 1.3 miles from the runway, you're saying its not safe to do the same basic maneuver 200' higher, with clouds 300' above you, and within 1/2 mile of the runway?
Vis hasn't really been the problem out here, mainly the ceiling. But what I'm trying to find out I guess is if the pilot goes out to the airport and the ceiling appears to be 1,500', so he goes and flies a few patterns, what's to stop an FAA guy from showing up and saying, "nope, looks like 999' ceiling to me." How could the pilot CYA without an official weather report?
08-18-2016, 06:51 AM
#4
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Originally Posted by FlyingBulldog
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. This is hypothetical only, and would be regarding a part 91 (non-student) pattern only flight.
Why would you fly a 500' pattern? Well, you wouldn't necessarily need to fly that low, you are in class G up to 700'AGL, so you could go up that high. Also, do you not do the same thing when circling? Yes. So if you're good to circle out of an approach with clouds presumably right on top of you (if its down to mins), and up to 1.3 miles from the runway, you're saying its not safe to do the same basic maneuver 200' higher, with clouds 300' above you, and within 1/2 mile of the runway?
Vis hasn't really been the problem out here, mainly the ceiling. But what I'm trying to find out I guess is if the pilot goes out to the airport and the ceiling appears to be 1,500', so he goes and flies a few patterns, what's to stop an FAA guy from showing up and saying, "nope, looks like 999' ceiling to me." How could the pilot CYA without an official weather report?
Why would you fly a 500' pattern? Well, you wouldn't necessarily need to fly that low, you are in class G up to 700'AGL, so you could go up that high. Also, do you not do the same thing when circling? Yes. So if you're good to circle out of an approach with clouds presumably right on top of you (if its down to mins), and up to 1.3 miles from the runway, you're saying its not safe to do the same basic maneuver 200' higher, with clouds 300' above you, and within 1/2 mile of the runway?
Vis hasn't really been the problem out here, mainly the ceiling. But what I'm trying to find out I guess is if the pilot goes out to the airport and the ceiling appears to be 1,500', so he goes and flies a few patterns, what's to stop an FAA guy from showing up and saying, "nope, looks like 999' ceiling to me." How could the pilot CYA without an official weather report?
Circling is also one of the most dangerous things you can do when flying single pilot instruments, and if you're going to compare visibility and ceiling low enough to require a 500' pattern in special VFR, then realistically you're in instrument conditions and shouldn't be there. There's a reason that many companies won't permit circling, particularly circling at night. Simply because you're trying to do it day VFR, especially in the context of a student pilot, doesn't make it any wiser...especially for a student pilot. Don't do that.
As for making weather determinations, it was answered in my previous reply. What did you take away from that?
08-18-2016, 08:23 AM
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Sure, I could file and go fly IFR - both I and the aircraft are capable of that - but my question is specifically about the legal way to obtain weather info for a field with no reporting. Yeah, you can use all this other information: Weather Channel, nearby reports, area forecasts, whatever, to give you an idea of the conditions and help you decide if its a good idea to go fly, but without weather reporting on the field, there's no black and white "ceiling IS xxxx, visibility IS xxxx." "The weather channel said it was 1,000 and 3" doesn't seem like a reliable source for determining VFR vs IFR conditions.
I'm not trying to justify blurring the lines between being VFR and on an IFR flight plan, but your comment was that flying at 500' around an airport is a bad idea, when in fact its TERPS'd for lower, farther away from the runway, in worse meteorological conditions ("low visibility," as you put it, I assume you mean less than 3 SM - exactly 3 miles would be VFR). 1,000 and 3 (civilian side, at least) is VFR. Lower than that is IFR. If you're VFR, you must maintain VFR cloud clearances. So, the highest you could fly and legally be VFR in the pattern at this particular airport is 700'AGL, provided the weather is no less than 1,000 and 3. Like I said, visibility hasn't really been an issue out here lately, its all ceiling.
Not trying to start an argument or use this to determine if I should go fly today, this all just stemmed from a conversation a buddy and I were having yesterday since we've been flying around this airport with no wx. We were looking for an answer to our question on how you get the official weather when there is none. I'm pretty conservative when I choose to go flying, no worries there.
I'm not trying to justify blurring the lines between being VFR and on an IFR flight plan, but your comment was that flying at 500' around an airport is a bad idea, when in fact its TERPS'd for lower, farther away from the runway, in worse meteorological conditions ("low visibility," as you put it, I assume you mean less than 3 SM - exactly 3 miles would be VFR). 1,000 and 3 (civilian side, at least) is VFR. Lower than that is IFR. If you're VFR, you must maintain VFR cloud clearances. So, the highest you could fly and legally be VFR in the pattern at this particular airport is 700'AGL, provided the weather is no less than 1,000 and 3. Like I said, visibility hasn't really been an issue out here lately, its all ceiling.
Not trying to start an argument or use this to determine if I should go fly today, this all just stemmed from a conversation a buddy and I were having yesterday since we've been flying around this airport with no wx. We were looking for an answer to our question on how you get the official weather when there is none. I'm pretty conservative when I choose to go flying, no worries there.
08-18-2016, 10:49 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by FlyingBulldog
Sure, I could file and go fly IFR - both I and the aircraft are capable of that - but my question is specifically about the legal way to obtain weather info for a field with no reporting. Yeah, you can use all this other information: Weather Channel, nearby reports, area forecasts, whatever, to give you an idea of the conditions and help you decide if its a good idea to go fly, but without weather reporting on the field, there's no black and white "ceiling IS xxxx, visibility IS xxxx." "The weather channel said it was 1,000 and 3" doesn't seem like a reliable source for determining VFR vs IFR conditions.
Your legal source will be the area forecast, just as it's been for decades. Nothing has changed. This is not new.
You're changing the scenario again. You said you're a student pilot. Now your'e an instrument pilot in an instrument aircraft. You should know better than to be buzzing around in low VFR and altitudes below the traffic pattern altitude, when flying VFR.
If there's no weather reporting for the field, then YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET A WEATHER REPORT FOR THE FIELD. It's not reported. See how that works?
Originally Posted by FlyingBulldog
I'm not trying to justify blurring the lines between being VFR and on an IFR flight plan, but your comment was that flying at 500' around an airport is a bad idea, when in fact its TERPS'd for lower, farther away from the runway, in worse meteorological conditions ("low visibility," as you put it, I assume you mean less than 3 SM - exactly 3 miles would be VFR).
What you can do when operating under IFR, circling, etc, is IRRELEVANT.
See how that works?
Originally Posted by FlyingBulldog
If you're VFR, you must maintain VFR cloud clearances. So, the highest you could fly and legally be VFR in the pattern at this particular airport is 700'AGL, provided the weather is no less than 1,000 and 3. Like I said, visibility hasn't really been an issue out here lately, its all ceiling.
Originally Posted by FlyingBulldog
We were looking for an answer to our question on how you get the official weather when there is none.
If there is no "official" weather, then THERE IS NO "OFFICIAL" WEATHER." See how that works?
Consider what is "official weather." Is the area forecast official?
It is.
If there is no weather reported at your airport, you can look at nearby airports, use the area forecast, and make a determination. You'd be foolish to cut it so close, based on that information, as to be flying a 500' pattern, because while you might argue to the inspector that you were legal insofar as your cloud clearance went, you may find yourself defending against 91.13, careless and reckless operation, and quite possibly 91.119, and you'd have to explain why you didn't either know or observe the published traffic pattern altitudes established for the airport.
Good luck trying to tell the inspector that IFR aircraft do it, so you should be able to, too.
08-19-2016, 04:49 AM
#8
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Alright, just take a couple deep breaths and relax. You seem a little worked up about this.
Could you point out where, exactly, I mentioned student pilots? You brought it up first, I can't see where I ever mentioned them in my question... So, no scenario change there.
Traffic pattern altitudes are recommended, not legally mandatory, as far as I'm aware. Can you point out somewhere in the reg it says otherwise? I haven't seen anything yet that prohibits flying at other than recommended TP altitudes.
Careless and reckless for operating VFR in VFR conditions? That's a stretch. Also, as I said, you wouldn't need to fly 500' in the pattern, with 1000' ceiling, you could legally fly 700' AGL at this particular airfield (class E to 700'). So, why aren't you flying the published traffic pattern altitude? Because another regulation (91.155) prohibits you from flying that recommended altitude.
I asked a question here to see if anyone with a better understanding of the FARs could provide a clear answer from the regs, not to get in an argument with the "good idea" police.
Could you point out where, exactly, I mentioned student pilots? You brought it up first, I can't see where I ever mentioned them in my question... So, no scenario change there.
Traffic pattern altitudes are recommended, not legally mandatory, as far as I'm aware. Can you point out somewhere in the reg it says otherwise? I haven't seen anything yet that prohibits flying at other than recommended TP altitudes.
Careless and reckless for operating VFR in VFR conditions? That's a stretch. Also, as I said, you wouldn't need to fly 500' in the pattern, with 1000' ceiling, you could legally fly 700' AGL at this particular airfield (class E to 700'). So, why aren't you flying the published traffic pattern altitude? Because another regulation (91.155) prohibits you from flying that recommended altitude.
I asked a question here to see if anyone with a better understanding of the FARs could provide a clear answer from the regs, not to get in an argument with the "good idea" police.
08-19-2016, 05:03 AM
#9
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Originally Posted by Singlecoil
I'm confused. In the OP you said it was class E to 700, then said at 500 feet you would be in class G? If there is an instrument approach, then it wouldn't be class G. Which airport is this?
EDIT: Sorry for the confusion. I mentioned 500' in my OP because: 1. Its the lowest I would be comfortable flying in the airport area, and 2. If it were another airport that was perhaps class E to the surface or inside C or D airspace, that would be the highest pattern you could legally fly under the minimum VFR weather (500' below the ceiling).
08-19-2016, 05:46 AM
#10
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From the NWS:
An area forecast (FA) is a forecast of Visual Flight Rules (VFR) clouds and weather conditions over an area as large as the size of several states. It must be used in conjunction with the AIRMET Sierra (IFR) bulletin for the same area in order to get a complete picture of the weather. The area forecast together with the AIRMET Sierra bulletin are used to determine forecast enroute weather and to interpolate conditions at airports which do not have a terminal forecast (TAF) issued.
An area forecast (FA) is a forecast of Visual Flight Rules (VFR) clouds and weather conditions over an area as large as the size of several states. It must be used in conjunction with the AIRMET Sierra (IFR) bulletin for the same area in order to get a complete picture of the weather. The area forecast together with the AIRMET Sierra bulletin are used to determine forecast enroute weather and to interpolate conditions at airports which do not have a terminal forecast (TAF) issued.
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