Originally Posted by
gloopy
That's what I was wondering. If it could be done via that method, then why even involve the ACMI "air groups" at all?
MONEY. Those ACMI groups as you call them, get better rates, offer a way to keep debt off the balance sheet, and keep our debt service and credit rating where it is at.
Why would any existing virtual airline have to be involved when a straight up leasing corporation could just do it?
MONEY Leasing corps charge more than this sort of deal would. Why? They have a motivation to make it in to the next phase of their existence.
To me the risk of a seniority land grab/arbitration/McCaskill Bond situation and/or a good old fashioned DFR suit would be a nuclear price to pay just for some temporary paper advantage accounting trick.
Maybe, but one thing I have not touched on on this round of discussing this is this:
DAL will need pilots and needs to find a way to get em going forward. Regional carriers know that pilots will be hard to come by, and their gauge of jets are going away. This sort of deal works for the regional airline, the regional pilot, and the major airline. I could envision some sort of sunset clause on the existing CPA's in exchange for this type of financial arrangement and some sort of flow to DAL. I really imagine that a double staple where they get tacked to our list and where we if we choose to fly the 76 seat and below flying would fly it at a category seniority below those that opted to stay put being one way of getting around all of this holding company scope, McCaskill Bond situation, DFR issues. It allows our seniority to be preserved, protects their current QOL as long as DAL choose to have it flown, allows DAL out of select CPA's, helps these given airlines find a means of revenue going forward, allows an ordered pulldown of their airline operations, provides the best financing for DAL possible, give these pilots a known future, and allows us to restore our scope of flying. It could be deemed a long shot, but if DAL really wants to fly those types of jets, it gives us true leverage to have it happen, and allows us to determine how the flying is flown, and by whom going forward. By including pilots from the likes of ASA, XJ, etc, though working with them to give them a job here, those sort of issues you mention melt away. Heck a simple flow agreement may do it, but doing it with a double staple allows some of the financial latitudes DAL would prefer. Look no further than AMR Eagle and their willingness to do away with their section one provisos for a flow. Note it, and note the willingness you see from pilots that see the RJ career as they know it being gone in ten years.
Also, how would it be structured? If it wasn't on the DALA certificate, would we turn into a Mesa/RAH where we (our seniority list) technically work for multiple airlines? What about the other work groups? Our pilots with RAH FA's? Mesa mechanics? SKYW dispatchers?
I worry about the pilots. DAL has FA's in asia that are not technically on the seniority list, Mechanics that work on DAL jets that are not DAL Mechanics, etc. (Dispatchers would probably dispatch DAL flying by DAL pilots. They have protections) Keep in mind I suspect or expect that DAL would have total operational control over the certificate if they were not flown on ours. The supposal I made above avoids the messy riffraf that you fear.
What if it was SKYW to avoid the RAH scope (btw how funny would that be...avoiding RAH because of THEIR scope!! LOL OMG!!! I want a mandatory oil painting of that meeting!) but SKYW eventually merged with ASA/XJ and voted in ALPA for all. Now we are flying planes on their certificate and they never agreed? Not claiming I know how that would be settled, but can we really risk that just to shuffle debt around?
See above, and also under stand it is more about debt service and credit ratings that this debt. The rates these airlines can get would be better than we could by assuming all of the debt. As a direct result our debt service for the same level of debt, plus the debt DAL currently carries would go though the roof.
I'm just worried that there isn't enough contract language in the world that could be written to account for all the potential unintended consequences of something as convoluted as this could end up being. The real risk to our pilots in an virtual airline version of this seems to far outweigh any potential paper gain the accountants might enjoy for a couple quarters before every analyst and their brokerage realize what's being pulled.
Again nothing happens and nothing flies until we say so, we own the flying and should never give that authority up. Period.
They have been doing one step below this for 20 years, this is just the next small step.
Speaking of the 787 compensation, I wonder if we spent it all on a phenomenal 737 deal or if some of that involved some 717's, or if we're saving it for something else, like 787-900's in 2020? Is something like that public knowledge or is it secret til it happens?
I often wonder too. Those 20 717's that BCFLC had for sale disappeared within a few days of DAL announcing that 739 deal. Like I said, I suspect that there is a lot more to that deal.
Also, the 717 is about 16 million a copy and if DAL can get that, they could potentially end up with a fleet of 100 plus the HAL birds if they bought them for a fleet over 130. That is a sizable fleet, and one that they can assume the total liabilities for without this sort of arrangement. What we are discussing is option two. (Actually thee, two would be getting a short term lease from a manufacturer, but I bet they will not play, because they too know that they are selling a 1/2 generation jump in technology that will be out done by mid next decade. )