Nice post SeaRider. Glad to see some sane and rational minds are joining the discussion. Maybe we can shame the likes of Stinky and EmbraerJetPilot off of this board and relegate them to the internal 357 MB playground where they will feel more at home.
And maybe Bolo and ridered while we're at it?
Do you mind disclosing who communicated this message to you? Was it the message IBT was sending to the troops? If so, it totally feeds into what I have been arguing. I know, for a fact, that certain personalities at FAPA made some comments that didn't help build our case. They weren't constructive, but neither was (except for themselves) the manner in which IBT utilized, magnified and spun those comments, successfully feeding their membership misinformation in order to cast FAPA and Frontier pilots as a bunch of arrogant *******s. I can assure you that we are (mostly) not. I have always been puzzled how we so miserably lost that PR battle, but have since gotten a pretty good idea. It's called International Brotherhood of Teamsters!
This message was born from observation and some deduction. As I've mentioned, I'm no full-fledged IBT supporter. However, all of the communication I have received from IBT has been entirely professional. I have not seen one instance of slander toward FAPA or the F9 pilot group. When discussions on the local357 board turn toward run-ins with F9 pilots, the leadership has always preached to 'take the high road' and maintain our professionalism. I believe you grossly underestimate the damage done with our pilot group by FAPA's 'certain personalities'. Our group in general approached this 'merger' cautiously optimistic. The vitriol from those FAPA few made quick news with us and sent us running into the arms of IBT.
Again, I truly believe FAPA (not RPC) could have won. FAPA fumbled the ball, and only because the FAPA leadership had a knee-jerk, emotional reaction and chose the "You will never be part of us, we will never be part of you, fight fight fight, ra ra ra!" approach.
Or at least it seemed that way to our pilot group due to unprofessional face-to-face antics on the line. I sometimes wonder if the negativity and hostility I've personally observed from F9ers on the line is ENCOURAGED by FAPA leadership, or at least NOT discouraged. I certainly hope I'm wrong.
Don't you see a pattern here? IBT denies lots of things they've allegedly said or discussed behind closed doors. They knew they had the numbers in a vote as long as they could discredit the opposition. They did a great job doing just that with FAPA and then RPC. They chose wielding their sword (spin & win) vs. compromising to allow the needs of all involved to be addressed. Again, why was the JC structure so bad for the pilots, yet ok for the FAs? Not to mention other IBT represented groups. We can debate to what extent, but I have no doubt IBT357 misinformed their membership about the initial nature of JC discussions and their openness to consider such an option. Something changed after those initial positive discussions (why compromise when you have the votes?) and FAPA/RPC/Frontier Pilots were once again made out to be the bad guys.
True, THIS was a deception, but who exactly was doing the deceiving? Did the IBT tell you or do you know for certain? There is a BIG difference.
Well, I guess that is the million dollar question. Only the boys (and girls) behind the closed doors will ever know. I'm speaking from the point-of-view of a junior line pilot only. As you say below, this all reeks of political campaigns. Who really knows who is lying or being truthful. At the end of the day, the IBT DID convince the majority voting the group that RPC was a ruse, and did so by simply saying "Nope, we have nothing to do with RPC, don't be fooled" That was all they had to say to convince us we were being duped by RPC. Again, I never received ANY direct communication from RPC during the card drive. Again, this was all for contract. IBT says: We will do X,Y,and Z to get you a contract, and RPC was silent.
Replace "RPC" with "the Company's" and "joint council" with "FO pay raise" and you have a statement eerily similar to what the 357 spewed out late last week. Hmmmmm?
I'm not sure I'm following you here, but again the IBT didn't slander. All they told us was the "Joint Council" really wasn't collaborated with IBT.
Again, who is the group that lied to you? Do you truly know? It's a question worth asking. I can't tell you for sure, but there are some doozie stories told to me by people who were present behind those closed doors. My hope is that someday we will all have an opportunity to peruse reams of documents to publicize the truths that have long been absent in these discussions. But, by then, it really won't matter as we all won't really care anymore.
Agreed, but will we ever know. Will we ever know what the POTUS says behind closed doors?
As you can tell, I would argue the opposite. IBT is a well oiled machine with a century of playing hardball with management and opposing labor groups. They operate much like political parties during an election year.
Yup. Do you F9 guys really understand the relationship between us and management? I hear it all the time jumpseating: "See, you Republic guys like to fight with your management. Here at Frontier Airlines, we like to work with management for betterment of all" Well, that really nice, but you guys are comparing apples to oranges. You are at a career airline. We are not. BB and WH have even STATED that this is, and will not be a career airline. Personally, I'm fine with that...I am here ATTEMPTING to pay my dues, which has been a long unfruitful road so far, and then apply to a career airline. BB and WH's business model is predicated on low labor costs and the airline is run operationally to be conducive to such.
They have systems in place to keep pilots just miserable enough to motivate them to leave at first opportunity. There will always be labor vs. management friction in this situation, and is only made worse as industry stagnancy subjects guys like me to an awful work environment for an extended period of time.
Before I quit for the night, I'd like to ask you guys why Mulva spends an hour in bed pecking on his iPhone about this stuff? Do I really take pleasure in it? No, but I guess I'm motivated to call out a wrong when I see it. This whole escapade just continues to bug me. IBT was always going to be the favorite so I'm not entirely sure why they chose to take the actions they did, but then again, it didn't surprise me either. It's kind of the way they roll.
I mentioned the other day that IBT got what they were after. They won and their future relationship (or lack of) with F9 pilots is the collateral damage resulting from their methods. There really is no further value anymore with discussing how this played out. It's done. There are 2 groups of good people at different companies and/or points in their careers who didn't start out hating each other, but have managed to get there. Didn't need to be that way, but definitely a lost cause now.
It bugs me too. Is it a lost cause? I'm here because I believe many of you F9ers view us all wrong, and I think it is largely due to lack of communication and, I feel but cannot prove, and inaccurate portrayal of our pilot group by FAPA. Again, I wonder if FAPA is trying to 'fan the flames' as some sort of battle cry. I try to practice what I preach on the line. When I fly with a CA that is negative toward F9 pilots due to jumpseating experiences etc. I try to emphasize to them that there really ARE some good dudes over there at F9. I've had many good experiences interacting with with your groups and a few bad ones. Unfortunately, I think it is human nature to have stronger/longer term memory of the bad.
I'll continue to repeat myself and let you all know that I hope you get the enhancements in the new CBA you seek. Just make sure you aren't being mislead. Call your eBoard and ask them to clarify issues that are contentious. Keep them honest. You are paying them a chunk of your wages every month.
Agreed, and planning on that phone conversation very soon. Just mulling over how to approach it.
They haven't been particularly successful in making your lives better at RAH and have pretty much committed themselves to a contentious and adversarial relationship with both the Company and Frontier pilots.
Management relationship explained above. If what you say regarding F9 pilots is true, that is unfortunate to say the least. They tell us they are continually trying to 'reach out' to you guys, but again, I'm just a measly junior FO, with the minimum 11 days off, and a long commute to reserve. I'm not left with much time to get heavily involved with the goings on of the union behind their closed-door meetings.
They've limited their options. Regardless of the realities, EVERYTHING must now be spun in their favor. They've even begun proactively spinning in preparation for news that might be perceived by you as signs of a weakness or mistake by your eBoard. Out of curiosity, did the "hostage" FO really get fired then rehired? Did he even get suspended? Could it be at all possible that the Company simply took him off his scheduled trip so that he would be available (on company time) to discuss things. There is a humongous difference between firing or suspending someone and simply removing them from a trip to discuss involvement with RAHContractNow. Anyone know or talk with the guy to get his story?
I don't know the guy personally. From what I understand the company removed him for flying duties to attend a disciplinary/suspension hearing at company HQ. Basically, the union 'puffed up' in his defense, and the company backed down.
I could be totally off base here, but I really do believe (and sometimes actually know) that there is WAY more to the story than what IBT discloses or spins. That's all I've got. Later.
You may be, you may not be. I just hope to communicate to you from our perspective, and perhaps discount some of what you hear. For all the negative things I can say about RAH, I will tell you that we have a good group of pilots here. Of course we have our X%ers, as does F9 and any other airline, but the majority of us here are great people. I fear we have an unnecessary bad rap in your side of the house. I'm sure I'm fighting a losing battle here, but I think we'd all be better of with some sense of unity, versus what he have now. Most of us are just line-pilots with similar personal goals. It is the crew-room tension, bickering over union garb, nasty glances and comments, one-fingered salutes, and jumpseat denials I'd like to see end. We're all adult professionals, right? None of this should be an "Us" vs. "You" thing.
Cheers,
SR