Originally Posted by
80ktsClamp
I love it... someone asks about the union actually doing real analysis on the cost benfits of insourcing, then a union guy comes on and says "we're doing it." When taken a bit deeper, that seems to not be the case. The other unionoid comes on and throws some numbers out there which were quickly taken to task. Cue defending and circles and attempts at fancy wording to look smarter with more info by unionoids which is quite transparent.
Why do our union guys try to justify the outsourcing?? This is ridiculous. Then they wonder why there is a push to get rid of this ALPA?
Originally Posted by
alfaromeo
I would be surprised at your absolutely predictable response, except I predicted it yesterday.
I would be surprised at your absolutely predictable response to more numbers concerning your earlier post, except it was kind of predictable you wouldn't revisit it:
Originally Posted by
alfaromeo
Well, that's just not true. The problem with this situation is that if the facts point to a conclusion that doesn't match certain people's preconceived expectations, then you are accused of "managing expectations," or in other words "don't confuse me with the facts." Here is just a sample of the problems you might face in this analysis. Here are some sample pay rates all from the second year, with the exception of our probationary rate that is thrown in for reference only:
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
When you did your couple of hours of research, where did you do it? Or did someone give you those numbers?
Originally Posted by
forgot to bid
Man, 2 years to RJ Captain is the average now?
BTW I didn't adjust those numbers for the size of the respective fleets. For instance, just because Comair is below $64/hr for so long doesn't mean that's the average as Comair only makes up 11% of the flying.
The largest carrier is Pinnacle 32%, ExpressJet 24%, Skywest 16%, Comair 11%, Compass 7%, Republic's Shuttle America 5%, Republic's Chautauqua 4%, GoJet 2%. And if I had more time I'd multiply their average pilots per plane by the number of 50 and 76 seaters.
Originally Posted by
slowplay
I disagree. Wasatch wrote
"Respectable Regionals"?
So the average Compass Captain (42 jets) has 4 years tenure. He didn't include them. And Compass gets a longevity reset whenever the flow starts, keeping downward pressure on wages.
A 4th year Compass A makes $70/hr, not $64.
Originally Posted by
slowplay
The last 12 "large" RJ's placed by Delta went to Gojets...those are year 2 Captains and the airframes came from SkyWest. Those two airlines 54 of the 255 large RJ's currently operating in the Delta fleet.
The lowest paid GoJet pilot will be make more than the $64/hr average. So GoJet is not bringing wages down, they're above the supposed average.
per Alfa's demand we do more research. please see airlinepilotcentral.com.
Originally Posted by
slowplay
He also didn't mention Republic and their $37/hr FO rate. They fly 30 large RJ's for DCI. That's 1/3 of the current DCI large RJ fleet he didn't include.
What is the longevity average of a RAH FO? WHOA WHOA. We all know that RAH is not one airline, we were told that in the aftermath of the RAH STS ruling. So what is the average longevity of a Shuttle America or CHQ first officer? Then we can look at the numbers.
Does the IBT put that out?
Originally Posted by
slowplay
How do you think the PCL rates will hold up under 1113, especially as 16 of their CRJ-900 aircraft flying for Delta are being rejected?
I don't, aren't they ALPA?
Originally Posted by
slowplay
They still will have 41 -900's flying if their reorganization is successful at whatever new payrate they negotiate.
How is Comair's concessionary bargaining going for their 28 large RJ's?
All ALPA right? They'll be fine! They've got the best team ever!
As to Comair, is there anything at play there other than pilot wages? Also, wrt to pilot wages, why does National let Comair have such low pay rates?
Personally I thought the Comair jets go to Skywest and then GoJet now. Man if I were you guys, I'd have an ALPA drive at Skywest and GoJet.
Originally Posted by
slowplay
Alfa's right, it is a complex problem. Scambo's point that it's not just rates is correct too. Using Scambo's way results in a pilot cost disparity of over 60% when compared to either aircraft block hours or pilot cost per pilot block hour. And that's just pilots. Not even including the rest of labor, the additional inefficiency of a new mainline fleet type and all the start-up and sustainment costs of operating a new fleet makes the difference gets even greater.
Oh, and if all those DCI contracts guaranteed profits, why is PCL bankrupt, SKYW breaking even, and wholly owned Comair collapsing?
See table above.