I think part of the problem here is we are at times talking past each other as there are so many different aspects floating around in this thread.
Originally Posted by
skylover
NO! I thought I mentioned this before - I plan on flight instructing a lot, actually! With the new ATP rule, it is impossible to not time-build in some way, since the ERAU curriculum itself only provides around 200-220 hours. It's up to the student to time build up to the ATP requirement. I thought that was established in previous posts?
I DON'T think it's okay to go right from flight training to a regional. And again, that ATP rule is eliminating that option anyway. When I say "go straight to a regional after graduation," I said that with the assumption that one flight instructed like crazy DURING college. I completely agree with people who say that "300 hours wonder pilots" shouldn't be in the cockpit of a regional aircraft. I've always been a believer that you don't really know something unless you can successfully teach it to somebody else.
I agree with everything you say here, except the one part you don't quite say. I think you have an excellent plan as far as it goes, and you will definitely gain a good deal of experience along the way. What isn't quite said, but what I get from reading this is after busting your hump CFI'ing (good for you, excellent experience) in a 141 program, you'd go straight to a regional if that was an option. This is the part I take issue with - as I said before:
[QUOTE=bcrosier;1230971]The path I'm referring to is the one where you don't do all of your flying in ANY university, 141, or 121 operation. One where you gain 1000 or more hours as the lonely guy on a nasty winter's night/facing down a squall line/running low on fuel when all the airports nearby are going below minimums, who has to make the hard decision whether to takeoff/continue/divert/whatever without anyone but yourself and your knowledge and skills to rely on. I will
GUARANTEE you THAT educational path produces a pilot who is
VASTLY SUPERIOR to a pilot who did any structured, instructed for a while
(and I'm all for being a CFI; you will learn VOLUMES from doing it - but it's not a complete education in and of itself either), {emphasis added} then hired on as a 121 FO with less than ATP minimums. [QUOTE]
Being a CFI really is great experience, and too many people on here sell it short - but it doesn't give you as rich a background if you stick only to that without diversifying your experience some.
The original context of this discussion was framed in your statement that you supported the reduced minimums. I've been trying to explain why just taking the shortest path from any school to the regionals is not the best path for your overall growth as a professional aviator.
In short, in any highly structured and controlled environment such as 141, 121, or even a highly structured 61 school, you have multiple layers of people overseeing you to ensure that nothing bad happens. Spend some time out of that environment, where the only one watching out for you is you, and you will gain another dimension of experience that WILL benefit you as you progress in your career.
If you're curious, I plan on actually becoming a CFI/II during the summer of my freshman year (ERAU has a summer program for that), flight instructing as an undergrad as a sophomore, summer of sophomore year, and junior year. Summer of junior year I plan on interning at a major.* I'll probably continue flight instructing during senior year. At the end of all that, I'll have well over 1,000 hours of flight time, and like you said, much more experience.
Again,
great plan -
just don't stop there with it! Whether it be aerial survey, pipeline patrol, flying the bush, 135, or a small 91 corporate operation - do that for at least a year or two, THEN move on to the world of 121 (if that is still where you want to go at that point)
Now, to the part where your definsiveness takes over and your logic breaks down:
Originally Posted by
skylover
But (and this is a FACT), one quarter of pilots who sit in US airline cockpits today come from Embry-Riddle. I never said that's the "norm." That's quite a few pilots; I guess a quarter of US airline pilots cut corners too...
Now let's be careful and define our terms here:
- We'll assume that statistic is true (I suspect it's high, but let's go with it).
- We're really talking about pilots at the majors, since we know there have been many zero-to-hero's hired at the regionals in the past ten years who have cut corners, so let's throw that out of the mix.
Given these, no - 1/4 of U.S. major airline pilots didn't cut corners. When they were coming up through the ranks, you typically had 2000 hours or more before even being considered for a regional. The did have to go out and build experience doing all of the things discussed elsewhere.
And since when does something that isn't the majority automatically get considered "cutting corners?" (What you said: "Until that route becomes the majority, it will be considered 'cutting corners' on gaining experience.")
If you have all the merit based awards you say (and I assume you do), you should quite easily be able to figure this out for yourself. You may not like the answer, but it's still the answer.
Finally, moving on to school choice: I know you have your heart set on ER, but at least consider what a few of the recent posts have said, such as:
Originally Posted by
SkyHigh
Get a degree in something rational and apart from aviation. You don't know what tomorrow will bring. Diversification and a solid back up plan are a crucial element in a successful career and life. Going to a big time aviation university is to put all of your eggs into one basket.
Originally Posted by
Death2Daleks
With all that said, might I humbly suggest you look into diversifying your college experience?
{snip} However, you never know what life may throw at you.
Imagine, if you will, that you're 10 years into a bright future in aviation, but all of a sudden you find you cannot pass your FAA flight physical. The obvious answer would be to turn to your degree and attempt to switch gears, but if all you know is aviation, you may find yourself stuck in the back end of an alley somewhere without any way out.
It's been said and it's true - airlines do not care what your degree is in (and I can't emphasize that enough - they really don't, just have a 4-year degree and decent grades). The converse is not the case, many businesses outside of aviation will accept a variety of degrees, but one in aviation (they don't see value in that) from a university that people outside of aviation know nothing about has very limited utility. Do an informal survey amongst acquaintances - name virtually any state school or university in a major sports conference and ask them if they've heard of it and if it's a good school. Then ask the same of an aviation only university - see what your results are. This is essentially the same thing that will happen when your resume crosses a non-aviation desk along with 157 others. It's something to think about.
I'm probably a little hard on you here because in many ways you seem to resemble me from years back (don't worry, if you try you can avoid turning into an a$$#0!@). I lived and breathed aviation, I got my private in high school, and read just about everything I could lay my hands on concerning aviation.
I was determined to go into a flight program - semi-unfortunately for me, my grades in HS didn't quite make the cut at the time. Instead I got my A&P along with pretty much all of the flight courses (there were a few I couldn't get into, but in retrospect I didn't miss too much in not taking them). Today I consider NOT getting into the flight school and essentially being forced to get my A&P the
second biggest favor the university could have done me - the A&P ticket along with my outside the university experience opened up doors that would not have been available otherwise.
Why do I consider it the second biggest favor? Because in all honesty, the biggest favor would have been forcing me to get a degree in a "normal" field. As has been said, things change, stuff happens, through circumstances you may not end up where you think you will. Options are your friend, and sadly an aviation degree doesn't do a very good job of providing them.
Well, once again what was intended to be a quick reply has turned into another novel - sorry about that.