Originally Posted by
Outsider
I figured I'd better ask this pretty soon because before long there won't be many who could answer it.
Back in the later 60's I was a new CFI and of course we were always trying to figure out what hiring was going on at the airlines.
But of course there was no internet and info was very difficult to come by.
There was a story about TWA during at least part of the time that it was being run by Howard Hughes.
It went like this; you hired on as an FE (as usual) then if and when you put in about 2 years (don't remember the exact amount but it was very short especially when compared to Pan Am which around this time it was typical to sit sideways for 7-9 yrs) and kept your nose clean you could take the oral and practical to become a FO. If you passed you were an FO, if you failed you were out, like out of the company. Same went for the move from right to left seat. Consequently there were some of the youngest Captains and oldest FE's in the airlines.
Does any body know if there is or was any truth or partial truth to this story. I've always been curious.
I think you are thinking of Professional Flight Engineers.
In the 60's, all airlines (Majors anyway) had Second Officers (Flight Engineers). Again in the 60's most of the Airlines hired Pilots as their Flight Engineers (as was done until everyone parked their 3 seaters). In those early years, post WWII and Korea many of the Professional Engineers were not pilots. They came from the DC-4 and Tri-Connie days or B-29s 37's. Then the Pro Flight Engineers were usually A & P's, meaning they were also Mechanics.
The Flight engineers had a separate Union (separate seniority list) as the PFE was often a permanent position. As the Jet age emerged 707, 727, Convair 880's etc, the Major Airlines began hiring Pilots as their FEs. They were given a seniority number as a pilot and they progressed like most do now, you move up when someone above you moves up, or when the company expands. Individual Company's may have had some type of Up or Out policy but normally it was by choice as seniority allowed.
The "Oral Check" out you reference, was when a PFE wanted to move up as a Pilot or was given the chance to by his employer. Many Airlines allowed these PFE a Shot at becoming a Pilot, but they had to get their Commercial Pilot certificates. If they were already an employee the Airlines would hire them if they had a Comm/inst rating and could pass the Airline Training program. (United's old 300 hour pilot minimums comes to mind). But it was more than an Oral Check out, it was a Full Airline seat upgrade program.
You are correct that seat movement was slow in the 1960-1980. It was typical to be an FE for 5-7 years and an FO for another 7. Typical Captain upgrade time was +-15 years. Then came deregulation.