Originally Posted by
Scott Stoops
Look at what you just did... you parsed (so did I!) You chose an argument that benefited your side. You illustrated that PanAm, Eastern, and TWA pilots that were furloughed ended up with lousy careers despite great career expectations. Note how you disregarded CAL, UAL, Delta, NWA, AMR, USAir (ok I'm reaching on that one perhaps) etc... pilots that were at one point furloughed and ended up being Captains, widebody Captains, and even led entire Flight Operations Departments (there are several)... To simply disregard career expectations and longevity in 100% preference of class (which CAL did Cap/Cap - F/O/F/O) is in direct conflict with ALPA merger policy. It isn't going to happen. It will absolutely be the end of ALPA. They know this. I know you know this.
I did! But you illustrate a great point. It's a coin toss when it comes to furlough, bankruptcy and careers. It's an unknown. So the UAL side will argue for the better, the CAL side for the worse.
Up to 3 guys to make the call.
And the Chief Pilot at PanAm.. the number one guy at Eastern.. where did they end up? It's partly a crap shoot!
You will never know if you (and I) made the right call by going to our respective airlines until the day we retire [19 years for me..]
Originally Posted by
Scott Stoops
The CAL list won't happen. ALPA cannot afford for it to. The fact that is was even proposed shows just how off the reservation the CAL leadership is IMHO. I guess time will tell, however.
The CAL List will never happen~ I know that! I also do not expect the UAL List to happen either. For numerous reasons.
What I do "expect" is that the Arbitrators are going to look at both lists, they are (probably) going to have some sort of methodology in mind and see if/where the two lists match, and then they are going to make up their own list.
I will not be surprised if some on the CAL list and some on the UAL list still end up matching..
The problem really lies with the bottom Captains and senior FO's (middle of the list) and what you do with the (involuntary) Furloughs.
A guy who is 10% on your list, and 10% on my list.. will probably by close to 10% (give or take a %) on the ISL.
But what about a guy who is 50% on your list and the guy 50% on my list.. who have very different earnings and career expectations.
or my situation-
I'm currently at 83%.. should I be matched up with a UAL pilot who is at 83%? (and using which list? Active Pilots or Total pilots?)
And using which date?! One in 2010 or one in 2013?
As far as my MC being off the reservation. I'm ok with that. The same could be said about your MC. Reality is, they are both fighting for their respective side.
And you bring up ALPA. That is the one unknown in this whole affair that bothers me. If ALPA and Lee Moak somehow influence the Arbitrators.. or the Arbitrators feel that they owe ALPA National something.
That if they make a list that is neutral or weighs slightly in CAL's favor, that United ALPA is done for. And at the end of the day, I think these Arbitrators also know that if they do something that is "perceived" wrong, it could affected their future too. I imagine they make good money doing this. They may want to keep that option open~
Originally Posted by
Scott Stoops
Personally, I think this merger will be very important to all of our careers. My Dad was furloughed 7 times at the original Frontier. He had a garbage career with 3 bankruptcies, a shutdown, and commuted for all by the last 15. If mergers like this end up creating stability for airline workers (which I believe they will), then I think they're necessary. I'm absolutely disappointed in the process this merger has taken (not just management or union), but I think in the end it will be a stronger company.
Scott
Agreed! I always thought that after Delta/NorthWest.. the writing was on the wall for the rest of the industry. Problem is, I never expected us (CAL/UAL) to happen so soon nor did I expect it to be this bloody and/or messy.
Both sides will have people that argue that if they had gone it alone, the other side would have liquidated and then they could have picked up the pieces. Who knows?!
One thing is for sure.. Delta would (as they are now) have been the leaders of the pack.
Would it have been painful to be stand alone? Maybe.
Alaska seems to be doing it. Same with SouthWest, Spirit, JetBlue.. etc.
I still hold out hope that after SLI (come 2014) we will have a list that isn't too painful and we can move forward.
I hope/expect that once we have an SLI, we will see 100-150 guys take the money and run. I also think you will see massive bids/movement that should help everyones QoL. (still not going to help the Domestic guys who try to deadhead home after a pairing at a base other than theirs.. Contract still allows scheduling to mess with you!).
I'm someone who tries to look for the positives, but at the same time am a realist and also expects/plans for worse case.
Either way, I can not and will not hold those UAL pilots who are around my seniority personally responsible for where they ended up. They had no say in it. I will hold them responsible if they Voted YES and then ***** about what the company is doing to us! (LOL).
Always
Motch
PS> You are going to loose bonus points on this Forum if you call me one of the smartest CAL pilots you've interacted with.. lol. Then again, maybe you don't know alot of CAL pilots!
All Good~