10· · · ·Q.· ·Do you know how close the seven-year rates 11· under the Kirby, if it had been passed in August of 12· 2007, so seven years out, those rates with the
13· increases that were included, how close they are to 14· the rates that are included in the MOU?
15· · · ·A.· ·At this point in time they're probably 16· close.· But I don't know.
17· · · ·Q.· ·They are.· They're really pretty close. 18· · · ·A.· ·Um-hum.
19· · · ·Q.· ·So, in essence, one way to look at this is
20· USAPA didn't gain at the end much over the Kirby as 21· it would have again been available to the pilots if 22· they have ratified back in 2007, right?
23· · · ·A.· ·I don't know if I'd express it that way, 24· but that's your contention.
25· · · ·Q.· ·You don't disagree with that, though?
·A.· ·Okay.· I don't disagree with that.

·2· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So let me ask you the question, if ·3· the ultimate outcome of this litigation is that the ·4· Nicolau must be used to integrate with the APA list ·5· and the McCaskill-Bond process, what have you gained ·6· by going away from ALPA and forming USAPA?
·7· · · ·A.· ·We've gained our own independence, we
·8· spent almost $7 million on trying to recover our ·9· pension, okay, which ALPA was not going to do
10· because they signed it away.· This is what the
11· pilots wanted.· They've spent almost as much money 12· on pension recovery as they have for seniority.
13· They run their own union, they have a say in it, 14· they don't have to kowtow to national.· And the -- 15· the overall response we get is most pilots would 16· still rather be independent of U- -- of ALPA.
17· · · ·Q.· ·So you think even if the Nic is used after 18· all of this time and the lost pay in between, it was 19· still worth it from your point of view?
20· · · ·A.· ·Yes.