Originally Posted by
tsquare
This is interesting. You touched on a couple of different metrics here and I was just curious if you could clarify it for me, because I think the point is not a small one and actually go to the heart of many disagreements we have here on this forum. You said that what we make right now is sufficient for your needs, and I think that's great. It is a responsible (and ultimately lucrative) thing to live within one's means. But then you said that the average of the Delta pilot's opinions would determine worth. Worth and needs are two very different things, and I don't see how you can equate the 2 in a survey or poll. I live quite well on what I make right now, but I believe like many that we are worth more. So the way I define worth, with the variable of need removed from the equation will probably be different than a pilot that has 6 kids and 3 ex-wives. He will always have that bias in the back of his mind, which will affect the survey. So how would a poll/survey account for that difference? And then, I really think for it to be a true "worth" evaluation, you would have to take into account the rest of the industry. (I am standing by for the blowback from the usual crowd on that) But the point is that could we honestly say that we are "worth" more than UAL or AAL or SWA pilots? How would you then quantify that statement?
Good question, T, and honestly I don't know. It's probably very hard to decouple one's individual needs from the desired salary. I think Sailing has a good point as well...what we think we are worth may be different from what we actually are worth to the company.
I do think it should relate to the difficulty in getting here, the amount of responsibility we have, the regular performance evaluations, medical and fitness standards, etc. There are some $100k jobs where people don't have 200 lives in their hands, don't wear a uniform, can get fat, aren't regularly evaluated, and can head to Denver to smoke pot on the weekend if they want to. $200k jobs, not as many. $300k jobs, even fewer. The RJ FO has many of those same requirements but obviously does it for a fraction of the money. I don't think anyone would argue that they are underpaid. Somehow supply and demand has people still willing to do it, but maybe only because they consider it a stepping stone?
I agree with Sailing to a point, but I also think that what we collectively think we are worth helps DETERMINE our actual worth. As an extreme example, what if all RJ pilots agreed tomorrow they would no longer work for less than $50/hr. If they held to that (RLA notwithstanding), I think the market would eventually determine that $50/hr is the going rate for RJ FOs. Impossible across the whole industry, but what about at one airline?
To Gloopy, totally agree on the scope portion and that pay rates aren't the end all. So many variables there, it's hard to come up with a simple scenario with those included. But all the things you said would make you vote no would draw a no vote from me as well! It does scare me that MD says "we have heard you loud and clear, and your number one concern is pay." I surely hope we don't give up any more profit sharing, reserve QOL, work rules, or scope to get those pay rates.
Last point for tonight...I personally think (and hope) the tide might be turning for ALPA. The latest contract mod was the first time I've seen positive words about ALPA from more than a few folks here (and obviously we are a statistically correct sample of the Delta pilots at large!) We want a union behind which we can rally, and I think they should be doing anything possible to garner this support. If survey results can be released without incurring a great strategic cost, then I think it would be a good faith gesture simply because it was a point of contention on the last contract.