I respect the APA, and I don't "look down on them." But you apparently never met an ALPA achievement that you liked, nor have you ever acknowledged a failure of non-ALPA groups.

The APA has a mixed bag in my opinion. I will call a spade a spade, and I will give credit where credit is due. Here are their pluses and minuses.

Pluses

- Were willing to go on strike, and had done a good job setting up a strike, educating the public, the pilot group etc, until Bill Clinton ended it via PEB after 30 minutes.

- Negotiated a pay rate of $186/hr (I believe) on the 737-800 back in the late 90s. This actually was the original stellar pay rate, which allowed us to negotiate $190/hr. THAT pay rate along with several other factors at DAL and UAL gave us the C2K payrates everyone still waxes poetic about.

- Were willing to vote NO on a crappy TA even while in BK. I don't think that the DAL pilots would ever do that. And guess what? The world did not come to an end.

- Did, however, eventually say YES to a follow-on TA.

Minuses

- The "sickout". Possibly the stupidest grass-roots "I'm angry with the company, and by god I'll show them" wildcat action in the history of organized labor. Not only did they get **** off a federal judge, not only did they get a $50+million fine levied against them (which was eventually forgiven by the company, but if you think that came for free I have a bridge to sell you) but they really handicapped the entire airline pilot labor force for years to come. The sickout was the original inspiration for management to run to the courts to get injunctions levied whenever they felt that the pilots might be causing complications in the operation of the airline. Thanks APA!

- The "just say no" mentality that caused them to reject a lucrative TA that was presented soon before 9/11. They then got nothing and liked it for many years after that. Of course no one could have predicted 9/11. But who can predict any number of negative events that will always crop up in this world. While any "yes" or "no" vote on it's own is neither good nor bad, it shows that always voting no does NOT--repeat, NOT--always guarantee "more" later on.

And to be fair, voting "yes" is also no guarantee that "that was the best we could do." (See earlier part of this post).

- Age 65 posturing. The APA likes to posture that they publicly put out ads opposing raising the retirement age to 65. So what? Not one congressman, including the APA's own district, opposed raising the retirement age. ALPA figured that out, reluctantly. Rather than trying to throw spears against the tide ALPA actually worked with Congress to craft some of the legislation language, such that recently retired pilots (at 60) did not come back to "their" left seat. If it weren't for ALPA's efforts there I have no doubt that that is exactly what would have happened.

APA has no, repeat, zero clout in Washington, and neither does USAPA, the IPA, the DPA (they have no clout even at DAL these days) or any other in-house union. "If you aren't at the table, then you are on the menu" is a cynical, clever, and completely accurate depiction of how life is when it comes to aviation, our lawmakers, and our careers.

The APA is a good union with a good pilot group. I just don't feel that they are as good as you seem to think they are.

I also hope they negotiate a very lucrative contract, not only for their own pilots--who deserve it in spades--but for all the rest of us as well.