International trips have to start sometime. Are international guys sitting in a hotel room getting proper rest before the start of their trip? Maybe. More likely, especially in NYC, they are commuting from who knows where and possibly taking a nap in the crew room. I really have no idea what international guys do before their trips. I expect them to show up ready to go because that's what professionals do.
Augmented international trips are really similar to CDOs. Augmented pilots get a break on a passenger seat or if they are really lucky, a rest facility. CDO pilots get a break in a hotel room. The rest facility is nice but the hotel is better. CDOs have an extra takeoff and landing.
The entire basis of your argument is that pilots don't sleep while at home. If you had said "I talked to a guy once who said he doesn't sleep between CDOs", this would be anecdotal. It's not even that, it's just you saying things and expecting others to believe you.
I have anecdotal evidence that pilots do sleep while at home since when I did CDOs I slept at home (or in a crash pad) but that is only slightly more useful than your argument. I'm more interested in empirical evidence. To the best of my knowledge there hasn't been a study of pilot behavior on their time off. The FAA investigated and determined a mid duty period nap in conjunction with a known rest period was enough to safely carry out up to five SDPs with only a two hour sleep opportunity (note this isn't the same as two hours of sleep). That doesn't tell us anything about what pilots are doing on their time off but does tell us that it was considered when designing the rule.
From the
final rule which you quote often.
Page 9
Whatever...just post the whole thing and let others decide what I meant.
I am saying CDOs are safe. I'm not saying they are fine. They are pretty undesirable without a whole lot of rules and a lot of credit. My list was "spit-balling", hardly complete.
I didn't answer your question because I don't buy the premise that CDOs somehow cause otherwise professional pilots to do act in an unprofessional way. I expect pilots to show up prepared and think it's really rare when they don't. If a professional pilot showed up for a flight with "3 or 4 hours" of sleep in a 24 hour period I trust that he knows his body well enough to know he is fit for flight.
It is condescending to insist that pilots who bid CDOs don't get proper rest. There are plenty of reasons to bid CDOs. If they are worth 1030 I'd bid them because I'd work three nights a week, sleep in the morning and still have time to mow my lawn before work. I'd prefer to sleep from 1030 to 630 every night but I'm a pilot and I'm not afforded that luxury anyway. I'd never see them at my seniority though.
No they aren't. They are acting in ways that may cause them to be fatigued but they are not "by definition flying fatigued."
The definition of fatigue
according to the FAA.
Being tired isn't the same as being fatigued.
You said something you made up, "(CDO) pilots are staying up all day...with AT BEST 3 or 4 hours of sleep", came to the conclusion that said pilots were fatigued then used the transitive property to determine CDOs are dangerous. This is not a good reason not to do CDOs...and there are good reasons not to do CDOs.
CDOs are undesirable because they operate during WOCL and make you tired. They become a whole lot more desirable when you attach a bunch of work rules and back the Brinks truck up to pay for them. I don't see any reason the company would want that so as much fun as this discussion is I suspect it's moot.
tl;dr
