Originally Posted by
Yazzoo
A fledgling pilot with a fresh PPL should not have his entire career jeopardized because of a simple mistake that didn't even result in a loss of separation or an emergency. End of story.
Absolutely! You often hear of the horror stories from dealing with the FSDOs but not the *success* stories (if you were to look at them in such a light). I currently sit across from two former GA ASIs who are new hires (so fresh out of the FSDOs) and neither of them would be *gunning* for this person's ticket - - and neither of them are asking for anyone to buy the secretaries flowers either!
If it's his first offense, then no harm, no foul, let him off with a slap on the wrist. But a violation that will stay with him to the grave is a little bit excessive (yeah ok, cleared after 2 years, but you still have to check "yes")
Agreed again. I'd probably be a fair Santa if I were an ASI. I just sat through the 'How to give a checkride' class for the new ASIs two weeks ago. The entire gist of the class was that they WANTED the applicants to pass and that you should work very hard to make that possible. I certainly didn't hear the FAIL THEM ALL mentality - at least coming from the Academy instructor. Now there was one guy in class that I could see taking all of the instruction in and then turning into a terror when he hits the street - but then again - I've already mentioned that 10% bad apples in every organziation.
Suppose you're a 22-year-old college graduate who got caught shoplifting when you were 14, but graduated with honors and have an otherwise clean record (actual example). Should you still have that infraction held against you during a job search? Of course not. We all make mistakes when we are young and inexperienced, but it doesn't haunt us our entire lives. An FAA violation has the potential to do that, and to hold a 200 hour pilot to the same standards as a 20,000 hour pilot is insane. Pilots are people, people make mistakes, and people with less experience make even more mistakes. Experience makes a difference.
You'll need to take your beef up with the hiring boards on this issue. It is them asking for a 20 year military retiree who has flown heavy jets around the world successfully for his high school transcript and then doesn't get the job because of was more interested in chasing girls than his high school chemistry class which he got a 'D' out of and therefore doesn't have such a high GPA. yes - a violation from the FAA hurts your hiring chances. A speeding ticket can hurt your hiring chances. And a low GPA can hurt your hiring chances. Don't you wish that those young starry-eyed kids who all dream of being airline pilots would apply some of that common sense and logic to the requirements of the career?
Nobody is arguing against taking responsibility for one's actions. Instead, maybe what should become more "popular" is the application of common sense when it comes to enforcing the law. There are inmates in California prisons serving life sentences for minor misdemeanors. Where is the common sense? There are pilots whose careers have ended over an inconsequential altitude bust. I ask, again, where is the common sense? Why throw the entire book at a pilot when a simple slap on the wrist will do?
Well....I don't know about CA - I wouldn't put anything past them - but here in conservative OK - - there is no one with misdeamnors serving a life sentence due to that particular crime. Are you possibly referring to the '3-strikes and your out' sentencing clause? Well...career criminals reap what they sow I guess.
I have a better solution. You asked about a cop giving a ticket. When you get a speeding ticket, you can get it removed from your record by taking defensive driver training. This is a fantastic system. Instead of just punishing the driver, they get the opportunity to show they have learned their lesson and *earn* a clean record through re-education. Why not have the same thing for pilots? If you bust a restricted area, mandate retraining with a CFI, get rechecked with an examiner, and have the violation expunged from the record. This should be an option for all cases like this airspace bust. It could be an add-on to the WINGS program.
They do have such training Yazzoo. Our own infamous Senator inhofe who nearly landed on a closed runway in TX and then publicly stated that he didn't have time to check those pesky NOTAMs got some of that remedial training - though I believe that he should have had a much harsher punishment for his transgression.
Did Sen. Inhofe Get Off Easy? Chapter and Verse (Updated) - The Atlantic
For more information about the guidance that FAA Aviation Safety Inspectors should follow when investigating incidents, see their official handbook, the Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS, a.k.a., Order 8900.1).
The section of that manual that discusses violations of regulations notes in part:
...
2) Remedial Training (RT) is a form of FAA administrative corrective action that uses education as a tool to allow airmen who have committed an inadvertent violation to increase their knowledge and skills in areas related to the violation.
In the end - this will end up as a negoitation between the inspector, their manager, and probably an attorney. A warning letter that goes away in two years is a possibility, maybe with some remedial training, maybe not depending on the circumstances of the infraction.
USMCFLYR, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. You are an FAA employee; I am an airline pilot. Although we work together as much as possible, at the end of the day our relationship is one of cop-citizen. And when we are suspected of breaking a FAR, it becomes the relationship of cop-criminal, and we sit at opposite ends of the table. Whenever an FAA examiner sits in the jump seat, I can't wait for the flight to be over. I am a competent pilot, but when the examiner has the power to end your career over any mistake they deem significant (very subjective), it makes for a very tense environment.
You must not be familiar with the Flight Inspection Operations Group (commonly known as 'Flight Check') Yazzoo.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flig...ghtinspection/
Check out this clip even for a better understanding of my job:
FAA updating flight inspection fleet for a NextGen world - AOPA
I'm NOT an ASI and I don't work in the FSDO. I get ramp checked by the same people that you do and I have those ride alongs same as you. We actually work incredibly close with each other - me as an FAA employee and you as an airline pilot. You like that nice safe ILS you fly on every trip? Thank the guy on the ground maintaining it and the guys in the air who checks to make sure it works properly. You like those RNAV approaches? Thank the procedure specialist who developed it and the guy who flew it to make sure that it was safe. There is no cop-criminal relationship that I am aware of between you and I.