Originally Posted by
cardiomd
I agree, if somebody is going to stall/spin then they probably should not be flying.
Originally Posted by
cardiomd
You are far from the only person that has this opinion and I'm always somewhat surprised by it. I learned steam+G430 and upgraded to glass G1000 and it took all of an hour to become extremely comfortable.
Originally Posted by
cardiomd
Obviously I was an engineer and am comfortable with technical stuff, and did have some sim experience, but I can not conceive how it could take almost "all of 25 hours" to get somebody up to basics with those avionics!
Originally Posted by
cardiomd
The average pilot, who finds the G1000 exceedingly complex, would simply ignore it.
Originally Posted by
cardiomd
If grandpa can't even figure out how to lean an engine for altitude takeoff, taking off a full 3,000 feet DA above performance limit at max gross weight, and not aborting after the multiple opportunities he had, he's sure as hell not going to learn how to interpret an AOA gauge.
Originally Posted by
cardiomd
An AOA gauge won't fix stupid.
I think one of the main reasons we (collectively) continue to avoid meeting on common
ground regarding this issue is your perspective (or lack thereof) on the instructional benefits. Considering that viewpoint is not in your tool bag, I really think you’re coming at this discussion at a bit of a disadvantage.
Based on comments you’ve made here and in other threads, you clearly are sporting an above average ego. As an accomplished professional at the top of his game, I don’t doubt that it’s deserved. As a pilot, it sounds like you’ve got experience and the ratings to go with it – so I take your viewpoints and opinions with respect.
However, being able to put yourself in the shoes of the student or even just the less
experienced pilot still learning what you already know does not appear to be one of your strong points. Whether learning to use a G1000 or lacking empathy for the hamfist who stall/spins his aircraft, you seem to come at this discussion assuming everyone will (or
should) bring the same level of capability as you.
A civilian student pilot who has been taught to fly “procedurally” via accepted airspeeds/bank angles isn’t necessarily going to come away from that instruction with a complete working knowledge of stalls. In spite of further flying instruction and book knowledge some may never progress past their procedural capability. That is a fact. Expecting someone to study and digest all the subtle nuances that lay within that diagram you posted is not realistic either. Being able to combine the two into a working knowledge of flight envelope limitations while actually operating the aircraft is just not going to be within every new pilot’s ability.
They'll just fly the speeds they've been taught and most will stay out of trouble. Most will “get it” as you did, but some will not. That should be fairly clear based on the continuing occurrence of traffic pattern stall/spin accidents in the GA world. We could collectively scoff at their ineptness, call them stupid and submit them for a Darwin or acknowledge the possibility that they may have benefitted from another layer of knowledge provided via daily use of an AOA gauge. Considering the procedural speeds are usually a worse case estimate, personally I'd rather know a little more accurately where I really sit in the envelope.
Perhaps you could just defer to the thousands of hours instructing many of the AOA proponents in this discussion bring to it and simply trust them on this. Adding this tool to mix has a significant potential to allow those with less inherent or natural ability and less technical savvy as you to tie the concepts involved here into a practical understanding of how to apply them.
Beyond the instructional benefits there are others which would be less used on a routine basis but greatly appreciated if they were needed. Icing, L/D max events, pitot static failures, max gw situations to name a few. Put all that together and it really seems like a no brainer, IMO.
Originally Posted by
cardiomd
If somebody feels like they need it, sure. However, rather than trying to retrofit the 1980's trainers that most people still learn to fly on, studying a diagram and understanding the concepts of AOA, wing loading, relation to speeds, etc would likely yield better results.
Originally Posted by
cardiomd
Would AOA gauge be a useful addition for training? Sure. Understanding AOA can be accomplished without this and these are pretty fundamental concepts. .
For you – doctor, engineer, etc. studying these “fundamental” concepts via graph worked. Are you really that blind to the possibility that some people are going to learn those concepts better via first hand application and visualization in the airplane while actually flying the stalls rather than studying a graph?
Originally Posted by
cardiomd
Money retrofitting planes with AOA trinkets would be better spent on instilling better basic airmanship for most GA guys. The two pilots did a lot of obvious things wrong, and having yet another gauge screaming at them would be unlikely to prevent the incident.
Using such a “trinket” would allow instructors to instill the airmanship more effectively – that is the point. Then the AOA gauge is never “screaming at them” in the first place – you’re seeing it as a reactionary tool rather than something that may help prevent the situation in the first place.
Originally Posted by
cardiomd
I can't imagine Joe Six-pack in his piper gaining any significant utility on routine flights.
There, Sir, is the crux of the problem. I don’t think you are able to put yourself in Joe’s head and think everyone is or at least should be at your level.
Originally Posted by
cardiomd
Important to see how the stall will occur at higher airspeed. Yep, AOA would show this directly, but 99%+ of all GA aircraft don't have one so it is better IMO to learn this relationship without additional gizmos and actually "internalize" the relationship from experience.
I disagree. Once a pilot has been able to gain a real practical understanding of that relationship by incorporating an AOA gauge, he would be far better equipped to then fly an aircraft without AOA. The fact that most GA aircraft don’t have AOA is even more of a reason to train new pilots with one.
Last edited by Adlerdriver; 11-22-2014 at 10:00 AM.