Originally Posted by
rcfd13
I don't think so. Of course I've had crew support try to violate the PPM, but any time I've called them out on it or called a SAPA rep I've won. They mostly stick to it or are forced to stick to it. The issue is that the PPM is written in such vague terms that it can be 'interpreted' in different ways and usually you don't win those battles. If the policy were made into contract by a union vote the same vague areas would still exist and they would still do the same things they do today to work around it. The whole thing needs to be re-written to fix that which would require a contract vote which would take a few years.
This works great for those that have the experience to know how all the rules are supposed to work. But for the new guys are the ones who are just apathetic and will take it just not to get into a disagreement (and in the process hurts the next guy CS deals with), they don't have a safety net. A union is the watchdog for everyone from the most experienced guy that doesn't let CS screw them to the last guy on the seniority list.
But you can't tell me that your grievance process is fair. I'm taking about those instances where they just don't agree with you. Until you have the leverage of a neutral third party deciding, management will take advantage of that as much as they see fit.
As for vague language, what matters is precedent. However management has been interpreting vague language, becomes status quo. After voting in a union, they can't change how they've been interpreting it without the union's consent.
Originally Posted by
skypilot35
Skywest is a good place to work. The wages are competitive. I would not hesitate to recommend working here.
That being said, I understand what you are saying and I agree with you but unions don't guarantee that the company you work for will be a better place nor do they guarantee that they will have a future. IMO I don't believe a union has any sway at the regional level. We (regional pilots) are contractors who work for a contracting agency (regional airlines). The majors doling out the flying are in charge and it makes no difference to them what's in the union contract that your parent company signed. If United, Delta, American or Alaska decide that the contracting company (Envoy, Comair, ExpressJet, Pinnacle, Horizon, Skywest, etc.) is too expensive or difficult, they move the flying. Regional Unions have NO control over that. A union at this level is impotent. A union CAN vote in a ridiculous pay scale to undercut their competitors which seems to be a recurring theme (obviously Envoy broke the mold on that
). The only way this industry gets better is with one seniority list and one collective voice. That will never happen. The regionals will continue to shrink. The majors will milk this system as long as their able. Eventually, there will be 3 regionals remaining. 5-10 years tops. Figure out how to make one seniority list which transfers between regionals. I'll sign on to that.
I think you are confusing the purpose of a union. You are right that it doesn't guarantee that the company will be successful. That's not the purpose of a union. There are certain things are will always be management's right. A union just collectively bargains with management. They don't dictate to management what the pilots will be paid. That comes by mutual agreement between both parties. And you are right that mainline management in conjunction with their pilots' union decide what flying they outsource to regionals. The union at the regional just tries to negotiate the best deal possible for the current circumstances. And that is achieved by mutual agreement with management. Lastly, I wholeheartedly agree with seniority transfer rights. But frankly, without you being union to begin with, you won't have that opportunity if it ever exists. And it's something that xjt is working on, by the way.
Originally Posted by
BeechLuxuryLnr
Skywest is a good place to work. It's important to keep this in perspective.
This is a very well run company. If you left tomorrow for say, Spirit or Frontier would your QOL be improved? Probably not. Even if United offers you a job tomorrow, your QOL would probably take a hit for 3 -5 years. Of course this all depends on where you live, among other factors. But I'm fairly certain that if I leave Skywest, I will probably not work for another company that treats their employees as well as Skywest has.
Yes, we all should be paid and compensated better. I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for what we're worth. But all regionals have their hands tied by the companies they do branded flying for. But we choose to work here knowing this.
And please don't expect a union to change much. If anything, it would **** off the company to no end. IMO unions are mostly ineffective at regionals, especially if they also represent a major partner. So that leaves us with few options. Ask any other regional pilot how effective their union has been. I could think of a lot of ways I'd rather spend that 20$ a month. This all pertains to Skywest of course - I don't think I would work for any other regional without representation.
So yeah, we all would like Delta's contract, but that's not going to happen at a regional. Of course it could be better, but that could always be said. Enjoy your time at Skywest because you'll never get it back.
I hope I don't sound like a d*** saying this - I just think it's important to consider that we all signed up for this job.
If the company would get ****ed off for exercising your right to collective bargaining for the purpose of having an enforceable contract, then that says all you need to know about your management. Especially since they already enjoy the rights to have their own contract. Having a union doesn't you no longer have a well run company. But if you believe you should be compensated better (not necessarily with higher pay rates), then the only way that's going to happen is with a collective bargaining agreement.
Also, if you believe there is a conflict of interest, you can simply certify SAPA. Ask any pilot from MESA, republic, TSA, or xjt if they would be better off without a union. Because I can tell you that each respective management would be compensating those pilots even less today!
No one is asking for delta contract. But you said it yourself, you should be paid better. Management is not just going to give that to you. And they shouldn't just give that to you. In business it all comes down to leverage when it comes to compensation.
Lastly, a pilot union is not just about a contract. It's a lot more than that.
Originally Posted by
BeechLuxuryLnr
I'm not trying to imply skywest is the best job in the industry. Just saying it is helpful to keep everything in perspective. There are many of us that forget this is a good job and skywest is a good company to work for. I enjoy my job, and I like working here - that's it.
I interviewed at Frontier last year and did poorly. I think part of it was a lack of preparation, part apprehension about leaving skywest. I was worried about possibly commuting to ORD (worst commute from DEN I have ever had the pleasure of), and that I would be back on reserve and making less money (I'm a 3rd year FO). I could interview there again, but I'm not convinced that my life would be better if I was hired. I also had the opportunity to interview at airways two years ago and turned it down. I had no interest in their bases and I did not have the time to prepare for an interview then. I regret that decision now. But I'm reasonably sure that I'm much happier today working at skywest than I would have been commuting to PHL for airways. But yeah, I might have passed up great career opportunities. So be it.
So that's my point. Not that skywest is the be-all and end-all airline. I just prefer to drive to work, for a company that I like, and be happy today. And call it kool aid drinking, or what you will, but it tastes better than the grass on the other side of the fence. I really enjoy my time at home more than anything. Even with the long call rules at the legacies, it would still be a PIA to commute. I would rather just move to the base. And I love where I live - I grew up here and never intend to leave. But we all have to figure out what is important.
I voted against the pay package and I always will. The company will always offer something better if we vote it down. Which is the second point - why this company doesn't need a union. The management has shown far more interest in negotiating than most. We just need to ask for more. And yes, ready RSV and TDY is miserable. But when over 80% of the pilot group holds a line, it creates a bit of a disconnect. Not sure how to fix that.... other than vote down the next pay package with that being a concession. But the majority of folks here that want a union have never dealt with a union at a regional. When necessary, it serves it's purpose, but it doesn't make sense at skywest today. It would be a waste of our money.
I feel like the point of the thread is to honestly discuss skywest. So I'm trying to be honest. It's a good discussion. Most of us will leave this company in the next decade, but for now, I feel like it's a good place to be.
This is a good point. For some, it doesn't make sense to move on. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to incrementally make it better where you are, at least while you are there.
Originally Posted by
Is offline
I left an ALPA carrier to come to Skywest, and at that time it was like day and night. I never had a problem getting something addressed or fixed. Scheduling was working with people and they were not treating me like a stepchild. Now fast forward a few years and skywest is starting to be run just like the rest of the regionals. Scheduling will purposely try to hose you and there is no one to hold them accountable.
I have noticed that there is a great devide between the 12+ year pilots and the rest of the group. There is a "good ole boy" club here that know everyone and think that nothing can change in their world. Over the next couple of years I feel the situation only getting worse when staffing falls even more short.
And this is what I'm talking about when I say a union is a watchdog. A contract holds BOTH sides accountable, with a fair neutral process to decide disputes on what is fair. But you can't have a collective bargaining agreement without a collective bargaining agent.