Originally Posted by
uboatdriver
What about those people that have been laid off/furloughed/displaced because the fleet/base they were on was going away and the company didn't want to pay for the training and relocation costs of a seniority based displacement? I'd say a seniority system would have protected them.
It would depend on the individual. If that pilot who was displaced out of base had established a life there and got displaced to a place where he now had to commute...and take a downgrade in the process...I'd say the seniority system didn't protect him, it screwed him.
If the displacement was because of a competitor airline moving in on his old airline's territory I'd say the seniority system is what's preventing him from making a lateral job move by applying for work at the competitor so he can stay where he lives.
The seniority system is a cage no matter how you look at it. You can train a dog to feel comfortable in his crate but it doesn't mean it's not just a metal cage.
Originally Posted by
2StgTurbine
And before someone says, "You can't find a 777 pilot who can safely fly the plane for $20,000 a year" just look at the regionals. They used to hire pilots with 250 hours and upgrade them at 2-3,000 and it took a generation before the public demanded the government to step in and raise the minimums. If it wasn't for the government, the general public would may have continued to demand more experience pilots, but they wouldn't pay for it.
I'm sorry but that's not how it works. What would happen is that starting salaries would tend to level out across the board. Average pay for first officers would go up based on market demand. The system of becoming a captain on a regional jet to qualify as a first officer on a mainline jet would go away.
The only reason experienced pilots accept job offers at $20K-$30K per year is because of the incentive to get a seniority number. The only reason first officers sit in the right seat of a regional jet for ten years is to hang on to that seniority number. It certainly isn't because that's what the job is worth.
Take away the seniority system and you eliminate any incentive to work for so cheap.
Part of the problem is pilots have been indoctrinated to believe there is less honor in being a regional jet pilot vs a mainline pilot. This perception is the result of the seniority system. The goal in aviation should be to aspire to captain and increase your pay but the goal has become to get a seniority number at a mainline and hang on to it. For that reason alone airlines have managed to force down salaries at the regional level. Being a captain of a regional jet should be a higher level position that being a first officer on a heavy. The only reason it's not is because it doesn't give you a seniority number at a mainline. I personally prefer short haul domestic as opposed to long haul international and have done both. I'd just as soon fly as captain in a regional jet if they paid competitive salary. The E jets from Embraer are pretty nice equipment and there should be no shame in piloting them.
Originally Posted by
uboatdriver
I don't think seniority stifles the free market. Its the grossly disparate longevity based pay scales.
Yes exactly, but the grossly disparate longevity based pay scales are the direct result of seniority.
Originally Posted by
uboatdriver
It's the lighted carrot pot of gold at the end of the rainbow tunnel. Everybody has to take a first year pay hit to change companies. If they could make roughly the same, then many more would jump from company to company.
Again, that's true but that's the point.The only reason pilots work for dirt cheap starting salaries so long is for that "lighted carrot pot of gold at the end of the rainbow tunnel" (as you put it). Pilots would of course jump from company to company...that's the direct result of a high labor demand and it naturally drives up prices (starting salaries). Airlines that want to reduce training costs and reduce attrition would need to offer higher pay to retain pilots and they would...just like any other business that doesn't have a seniority system they can use to lock down their employees.
Originally Posted by
Elvis90
If we eliminated the pilot seniority system, we would still not have a free market economy due to government regulation of the airline industry.
I hear this argument a lot but again it doesn't matter. There is no federal regulation that requires airlines to maintain a seniority system. The regulations are designed so that less experienced pilots start out as first officers and spend time gaining experience before moving up to captain. That wouldn't change. What would happen is that once a pilot became a captain he would likely be able to remain a captain the rest of his career regardless of job changes.
Many industries are regulated but don't use a seniority system for their employees. The labor costs are still affected by free market. All the regulation does is limit the pool of potential employees to those who meet the federal standards. In this case they must have an ATP, pass a background check and meet proficiency standards.
In the old days management tried to force down labor costs with "B scales" but realized it would work even better within a separate seniority structure.
The regional airline model is nothing more than a massive industry wide B scale that uses lower paid and usually, but not necessarily, lower experience pilots to do the exact same job as the mainlines. The only thing that allows this business model to sustain itself is the seniority system. Management knows this better than anyone which is why management will always implement a seniority system in airlines even in the absence of a labor union. It's about the only industry where the employees would tolerate such a thing.