Originally Posted by
FDXLAG
Essentially the rules are the same for a three man crew and a crew of three men.
Originally Posted by
FDXLAG
... the rest requirements for 3 man crews and 3 men crews is the same.
I don't understand the distinction you are trying to draw between man and men. Maybe we should rewind to the beginning of this sub-conversation.
Originally Posted by
Adlerdriver
Of course. We've been doing it for years with an MD-11 or MD-10-30. 3-person crew, less than 12 hours block. If they got lucky they had an -11 crew rest bird, if not they had a futon (I mean a vinyl mat on the floor).
There are Fedex MD-11s airborne as I type this flying 8 to 12 block hours with 3 pilots and no rest facility. Why is this even a question?
Originally Posted by
Huck
Back in the day we flew DC-10's up to 12 hours. And that was with your behind in your crew position.....
Originally Posted by
FDXLAG
Originally Posted by
Huck
Back in the day we flew DC-10's up to 12 hours. And that was with your behind in your crew position.....
And 727 block over 8 with three legs.
Originally Posted by
TonyC
DC-10 & B-727 have 3-person crews. What's your point? Different rules apply.
Originally Posted by
FDXLAG
You mean like an RFO? Or is that not a 3 man crew?
Back in the days when we were operating DC-10s and B-727s, we operated under Subpart S -- Flight Time Limitations: Supplemental Operations.
§121.511 Flight time limitations: Flight engineers: airplanes.
(a) In any operation in which one flight engineer is serving the flight time limitations in §§121.503 and 121.505 apply to that flight engineer.
So, here for ready reference, §§121.503 and 121.505:
§121.503 Flight time limitations: Pilots: airplanes.
(a) A certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot to fly in an airplane for eight hours or less during any 24 consecutive hours without a rest period during those eight hours.
(b) Each pilot who has flown more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours must be given at least 16 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the certificate holder.
and so on ...
and ...
§121.505 Flight time limitations: Two pilot crews: airplanes.
(a) If a certificate holder conducting supplemental operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall give him an intervening rest period at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. This rest period must be at least twice the number of hours flown since the preceding rest period, but not less than eight hours. The certificate holder conducting supplemental operations shall relieve that pilot of all duty with it during that rest period.
(b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of two pilots may be on duty for more than 16 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
Sooo ... the rules that apply to 2 pilots and a Flight Engineer are the same as those that apply to 2 pilots.
Just for comparison, here's a peek at the rules that apply to three pilot crews:
§121.507 Flight time limitations: Three pilot crews: airplanes.
(a) No certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot—
(1) For flight deck duty in an airplane that has a crew of three pilots for more than eight hours in any 24 consecutive hours; or
(2) To be aloft in an airplane that has a crew of three pilot for more than 12 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of three pilots may be
on duty for more than
18 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
Notice the distinction between "aloft" and "flight deck duty". For a crew of 2 pilots and a Flight Engineer, they're the same thing -- every minute aloft is a minute of flight deck duty. For a crew of three pilots where only two are required, only 2 can be on flight deck duty at a time -- the other one is just aloft, and NOT on flight deck duty.
A crew of 2 pilots, or a crew of 2 pilots and a Flight Engineer, can exceed 8 hours of flight if they are then given the required rest. A pilot on a three pilot crew cannot be scheduled for more than 8 hours of flight deck duty -- no "except" clause.
So, an RFO is not like a Flight Engineer.
So, now we usually operate under Subpart R—Flight Time Limitations: Flag Operations. How do they differ?
§121.493 Flight time limitations: Flight engineers and flight navigators.
(a) In any operation in which one flight engineer or flight navigator is required, the flight time limitations in §121.483 apply to that flight engineer or flight navigator.
so ...
§121.483 Flight time limitations: Two pilots and one additional flight crewmember.
(a) No certificate holder conducting flag operations may schedule a pilot to fly, in an airplane that has a crew of two pilots and at least one additional flight crewmember, for a total of more than 12 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
... and so on.
Flag rules treat the Flight Engineer the same as "one additional flight crewmember." However, Flag rules didn't apply to those "back in the day" comparisons you made to B-727 Flight Engineers at FedEx. Exceeding 8-in-24 resulted in required rest.
Back to the original thought of the thread, being aloft in excess of 8 hours without "crew rest facilities." You are correct that "facilities" are not required. However, no pilot can be scheduled for more than 8 hours of flight deck duty. How can a pilot be free from flight deck duty when he cannot even leave the flight deck?
.