Originally Posted by
McBoeingBus
I'm a little curious as to why you are looking at UPS. Do you want to live in SDF, ONT or ANC? Otherwise, you may want consider another airline/cargo hauler. I agree with previous comments that 06-07, particularly late 07, hires have not enjoyed the best progress or lifestyle. I have several friends who took an unpaid vacation for up to 4 years. So, furlough is a real possibility that would have been previously discounted. UPS peaked around 3000 before the age 65 regulation passed. Today UPS is around 2550. It is true that airlines with FEs were more impacted than those without and I know that 3 types were retired in a few years, but UPS has shrunk. It will be a dozen or so years to see 1/2 of the list retired, but that assumes no changes to the size of the airline or increases to retirement age. It's a fact that cargo carriers deliver on time, planes, trains or trucks are equally suitable as long as it gets there when its suppose to. You nor I will tolerate a bus when we've bought an airline ticket. Cargo carriers are more likely to see service alternatives than passenger carriers.
UPS and FedEx are the only ones left with an "A" Plan, but the legacy airlines are paying healthy 401s and profit sharing in some cases. Of all of the majors UPS has a laughable first year's pay and isn't significantly different in the second year.
Take the first job you get offered, but look long and hard at the best choice; ideal city, routes and seniority progression. If you do get hired at UPS and make it to the second or third year pay, well, departing will be more difficult. If you are looking for a management job at UPS, that's a completely different set of questions. Good luck either way.
MBB
Brown is currently interviewing for the pool. Rumor is that SDF is waiting on corporate to allow hiring.
Some different perspective / thoughts on MB's post:
1. A huge percentage of UPS guys commute. No reason to live in domicile though the consensus is that the QOL is better within driving distance. I have an easy / short commute and find my QOL would be marginally better, if at all, in SDF. Where I live and want to live isn't a domicile for any carrier so I'm commuting either way.
2. UPS has furloughed once. Passenger carriers, multiple times. FedEx and Emirates, zero. I think a lot of guys at brown really believed UPS when they were told it would be, "the last job they would ever have." IMO they should have known better. Either way, this is not the data you should use to assess risk for a future furlough at a given carrier.
3. The only service alternatives for ups/fedex are other operators which is limited by scope language. UPS has stronger scope language than FedEx; FedEx doesn't have management flying the line. When the demand for getting things moved over long distances in a short period of time declines then you'll see air cargo suffer.
4. UPS has 12% Bfund, FedEx 8-9%. Majors average around 16% (ballpark). UPS A fund pays $90K with 30 yrs of service, FedEx $130K. Pilots at fedex and ups are a tiny percentage of corporate costs and if the pensions were going to go away they would have after the schitt-show this industry has undergone since 2000. Profit sharing and green slips are great, in times of profit. No clear winners here. If UPS wants to attract top talent in the future they are going to have to offer improved retirement plans.
5. Current Ups first year pay is based off negotiations made in the early 2000's. I don't seem to recall anyone offering massive first year pay back then and I'm pretty sure UPS was in the ballpark of other carriers at the time. New contract SHOULD at least roughly match FedEx for first year pay, but it does legitimately suck right now so consider this aspect carefully if you are in the pool. IMO it would be a big waste of time, money, and effort to go to brown with the intention of jumping ship when your first/second choice starts calling. Second year is $148 at an 80.5 hr guarantee (per cal month). Pay starts to merge between brown and the legacies IF a guy at the legacies can get to a widebody or upgrade fast. IF the industry starts to stagnate again, advantage goes to FedEx/UPS (even under UPS's current contract). For various reasons like hours of duty, lithium batteries, UPS should pay significantly more.
6. Management pilots: very controversial at UPS. I wouldn't expect an ounce of respect if you accept that position, if that position is even around in the future...
Some additional thoughts on Brown: do your research and know what you are getting into before committing to this place. It's not a bad gig, it's just different so having the right expectations makes a world of difference. I talked with a new guy who was really thinking about bailing but never did as he would have been trading one set of pros and cons for another.
Being junior at Brown isn't that bad, currently. Those mid 2000 guys did draw the short stick in timing. Comparatively, I'm getting equal or more days off than my peers at DAL, UAL, AA, SWA flying somewhat less block hours but that's mostly due to the dynamic of the environment we operate in. Of the new hire friends who got awarded a heavy at the legacies, I'm flying way more international and flying globally. For that, UPS and FedEx are worth consideration (if you value long haul international), as you just won't see the same kinds of flying at the U.S. Pax carriers. We are seeing our first displacement bid where a few guys are going to get shuffled and that is the real downside of juniority at Brown. But, it's really a practical problem of stagnation. Some guys have held lines since day 1 and some guys have barely flown on reserve; it's fleet and base dependent like anywhere else. Conflict bidding is awesome but not something the junior can enjoy very often.
The downsides of UPS are the night flying, uncontainable cargo fires, upgrade times (if that's really important to you), and the culture. If UPS had a decent culture this would be a phenomenal job (realistically, assuming we see some much needed contract improvements). But they don't and probably never will so again, do your research. There is also very strong likelyhood of a future strike if UPS doesn't agree to a good contract as I doubt the guys will settle for anything less so consider that as well.