Originally Posted by
DraGoon
From the perspective of a new hire, these forums hurt Envoy's reputation. I truly understand that this is a place where discussions are to be had, but after reading the countless posts of unfettered bickering about ... nothing, it really makes Envoy look bad to the unknowing.
I work at one of Envoys partner schools, we also have partnerships setup with other airlines and I can tell that by far Envoy has the worst reputation in the eyes of my peers. Because we see a lot of posts on here saying Envoy should increase their pay, lower their reserve time etc. to get new hires in the door. Well, word on the "streets" no one wants to go there is because as a pilot group/company the image that you put forth on here is that of a dysfunctional angry group. I do not mean to imply that but to us outsiders (CFIs and other potential hires) it looks like a hot mess none of us wants a part of.
So you think it's best for pilots NOT to discuss the good, bad and ugly regarding the realities of various airlines, but only the good ? You think it would be best for present pilots to just to walk into the industry with no information or whitewashed information ? You think it's best for pilots NOT to come on here and ask for improvements to competitively deficient contractual items or dare I even say it............expect their managements to LIVE UP TO THE CONTRACTUAL PROVISIONS THEY AGREED TO IN THE FIRST PLACE ? Perhaps places that are perceived to be a "hot mess" are that way for a reason ?
Originally Posted by
DraGroon
Let's be honest, this is the generation of "what can you do for me". The contract airline that gives up the goods will get the newbs.
- Higher pay
- Shiny Jets
-A cool base or extremely commutable
-And a good attitude toward a dumb new guy
Yes in that order, we're ( as a whole) shallow.
This generation needs to be hugged all the way up to inking the deal. After that do what you like to them. Just take away their social networks if you're gonna treat them bad
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but to a degree it has always been that way, but I agree that now I think it's simply on steroids. The regionals as an industry have ALWAYS treated their pilots poorly (and it's not a compensation issue per se, but a philosophical one), but now that the inevitable has occurred when an industry does that and in this case, the commodity of the "pilot" has been alienated, the situation is now more dire as many carriers themselves see that they may cease to exist in the fairly near future and yet even with this knowledge (subconscious or not), they STILL cling to the philosophy that got themselves in this hot mess in the first place. One of those philosophies IMO, is what is occurring on this forum that seems to be only about Envoy.
You can't fix stupid.
Originally Posted by
DraGoon
But I digress. Bottom line most of the prospective hires come to forums like this to get information. We'll read 20 pages of posts and get 1 to 2 pieces of useful information and 75 posts of how the flow won't work, how crappy it is to work there, how your contract is violated on a regular basis and how you can't get new hires. I personally want to work for Envoy. I have met a few of your pilots, one a good friend and think very highly of. But if this forum is where you choose to air your dirty laundry you're only hurting yourselves. I don't blame management for putting fake posters on here. They may be the only reason you're getting the 5-6 new hires and not fewer. Additionally, if I understand it correctly, the only way the flow works is to get new people through the door. If it were me and I worked at Envoy, I'd be cheerleading the heck out of it just to move my seniority number. And then once I got them in there, change the culture from a poo poo on the company, to do the best you can with what you have. Not that you're not doing that now. But to the layman reading these forums you are.
My $0.02
This last paragraph indicates to me that you should concentrate on an airline management future as it seems that psychologically, that's where you are now if you consider the "bad's and ugly's" aren't what prospective pilots should hear and only the "good's" are "useful information". From my perspective, these forums have more then enough useful information on contractual aspects, logistics and anything else you need or want to know about an airline and the rest is simply opinions to consider or not. But you're right though, some here ARE cheerleading (and selling) using questionable info and illogical claims JUST so they can "get theirs". THAT is one of the very foundations of the problem too, that being that a significant percentage of the present cadre of regional pilots have a steroidal parasitic philosophy and are all to willing to throw another under the bus to grease their own path forward. IMO, THAT is the reason the topic of Envoy practically stands alone on this forum as no other regional here has elected to use the tactics of management plants, false identity members, embracement of inflated claims and aggressive sales tactics by a handful of select pilots as Envoy. I think in that respect, Envoy has become its own worst enemy as the more the present situation there is represented that is at odds with the reality that their pilots report, its pilots and others will dispute that.
As usual, it's just my opinion, but I think the best thing for Envoy on this forum is to simply be like the other regionals (why must it be so different ?) and go with the philosophy that if there isn't much good to say, to not say anything at all and it will mute a lot of this so-called negativity that you claim is the crux of Envoy's problems. If half as much effort was put into repairing their relationship with their pilots as is pumping B.S. into this forum, I think they'd have twice as many new-hires in class. Of course, being a systemic issue not just about Envoy, but about the regional industry, the days of having enough pilots are over. As the legacy retirements ramp up over the next few years, this sub-segment of the industry is destined for a complete change to be virtually unrecognizable from the present.