Originally Posted by eaglefly

Hardly. But it's an interesting claim. If that is my entire existence here AND all I can supposedly scrounge up is negativity, what does that say about Envoy by the pilots that DO work there ?

Originally Posted by eaglefly

In reading this paragraph, in my opinion from what I've heard on forums and talking to Envoy pilots directly, your assessment of present Envoy seems to be the distinct minority. AFAIC, from my assessment, the ills you describe are not just "things management needs to do", but something far more systemic in their relationship with their pilots which to me appears quite dysfunctional. From past experience there (which sounds leaps and bounds better then the present), pilots lived up to 95% of their bargain with management and the reverse was less than 50%. I think management needs to FAR more then just to "wake up".

Good luck to you too. I think you'll need it.

Originally Posted by eaglefly

It's not up to Envoy, AAG would green light the MIA hub/domicile. But, apparently the agreement for a sattelite domicile in MIA has been rubber stamped by the team players in the MEC. Won't do anything for new-hires or most Envoy pilots, but good for a handful.

Originally Posted by eaglefly

They know most pilots will leave anyway for a legacy or LCC, but not make a lateral move to another regional no matter how bad things get and most will blindly follow that delicious carrot -the flow, so throwing more money at present pilots is a waste, at least for now. In fact, most will focus so intently on the flow, they'd walk off a cliff in the process (and reading posts here and on EL, appear to be doing just that). Look at all this bonus money. It's for attracting new-hires (their conundrum) and NOT for demonstrating worth to those already on property (the pilots conundrum),

Even the bonus money for present pilots is an investment for them to get new-hires to Envoy for the most part. Once a pilot is at Envoy and rakes in all that $$$, they get slapped with a pay cut starting year 2. The shiny new baby airbuses are all going to new-hires (along with their better schedules), while more senior Envoy pilots suck eggs. I read Pool's letter and it sounds to me like it was penned by management and he just signed it. The extra $$$ is a nice thing, sure, as who doesn't want extra money, but make no mistake, from my POV, nothing has changed there and nothing will change their as the components needed for that just don't appear to be on the radar screen.

Originally Posted by eaglefly

Sorry, but I don't see any moves from anyone other then what they already are willing to do. I see that claim of sudden mass exodus as chest-thumping. Sure, there will be a small percentage of outliers, but the pilots already proved via Cujo's poll, they plan to ride it out at Envoy for the blessed flow unless another legacy gets them first or the case of some, an LCC. As for the flow to AA, IMO, most if not all the LCC's, will have better contracts then AA within a few years and AA will be the least financially lucrative airline among the other legacies and LCC's like Southwest, Jet Blue, Spirit, etc. all who will have higher narrowbody rates and better work rules and at least equal 401(k) pensions. We're going to be the "cheap seats" in 2020, IMO, so personally, I don't think the flow is as golden a ticket as most other places considering where we are and where we're going.

Originally Posted by eaglefly

My points about Envoy pilots resistance to vacating involve lateral moves to other regionals. As it stands now, most PP pilots, particularly current F/O's will go now to any decent LCC's that makes an employment offer. It's been my contention AAG will make a consolidation move involving Envoy by later next year when the PP agreement becomes the new flow mechanism, but Envoy (not AAG) is just concentrating on the now. LCC's (or legacies for that matter) are not gutting Envoy yet and for now, AAG/Envoy will only do what they think will keep the engine from seizing and nothing more, hence these schemes that do virtually nothing for present Envoy pilots and are all geared to just kicking the can for awhile, which BTW Mr. Pool seems all in to help.

Originally Posted by eaglefly

But as Envoy contracts, it will be the E-145 fleet that contracts first and fastest. From my understanding it also has the crummy early/late schedules that make commuting a nightmare, even with free rooms. Most importantly though, I think it will be the fleet most at risk for being fragmented off to a non wholly-owned carrier (it's pilots do have recall rights as slots would open in any non divested segment of the present Envoy) and that alone would lead me to the E-175 if I were a new-hire.

Originally Posted by eaglefly

Considering attrition is still outstripping recruitment last I heard, how will they staff more E-145's ? Most, if not all prospective new-hires out there seem to consider the E-145 as attractive as a Cessna 172.