Samc,

Talking about schools like UND, and Riddle under the same breath as RAA and Delta Academy isn't right (unless you're speaking of the now-defunct CAPT program). These are accredited universities that happen to have aviation programs. There are many of them out there. Every state has at least 1 aviation program in their university system. Many of these programs are established and regarded highly in the industry. UND and ER get a lot of flak because they're the ones that are using shiny ads and are also used by manufacturers (when UND needed a new fleet, they choose piper, and so should you). That and for whatever reason many recent grads think they're owed something becuase they went to one of the two. I don't know where this comes from. I know a number of people who graduated from both in the 80s and 90s and don't share this feeling of being owed.

More clarification on why I don't like PFT:

Ok, when you do PFT, you are paying for an interview, you're getting the back door in. You already paid much more than market value for your training, and you did this because it was the easy way. You're more than likely willing to take less pay. Even if you're not, you're going to get a lower offer because you're less experienced. Lowest bidder (because they have lower labor costs) gets the contract, better paying companies get the ax. Everybody looses, they either get furloughed or are making less because their union took a pay cut to stay competative.

Situation 2: Pseudo airlines (GJ and Newco) are started to circumvent scope clauses. They fly bigger jets which not only kills off flying for the major, which kills jobs there, which stalls the guys at the regional from moving up, which causes you to sit in the right seat longer (making less than if you upgraded). Everybody ends up with lower pay in the long run.

The reason I say we need to unite is simple. Pilots are back-stabbing SOBs. For every guy out there that is willing to take a stand for better pay, there are three that are willing to fly the airplane for less, or in some cases, pay to fly it. How does that help you? It may get you 121 experience faster, but it's just another step in the race to the bottom. By lowering yourself to that level you're lowering the pay that others will make to remain competative, and you're lowering the amout of income you'll recieve in the long run because of this, and the slowed career advancement it causes.

And yes, SkyHigh is right about this industry being cyclical. It's amazing that these morons that are running these companies into the ground don't see the writing on the wall. In some cases the same airline has seen similiar situations 3 and 4 times in the last 20 years yet they don't learn their lessons.

Last, The Airforce is a totally different beast all together. For staters, the training is very rigorous and if you don't make it, you're out. Second, they spend every waking second of every day learning these aircraft, working in sims, and studying the applicable systems and theory, and dedicated to nothing but flying that airplane. They may only have 300 hours total, but there are thousands of hours already devoted to simulation and systems before they fly that aircraft. Also, these men and women are defending my right to say what I want on here and keeping my family free. Don't compare them to somebody who just shelled out 30k to fly a jet. I have way too much respect and admiration for our soldiers to even consider them in the same book, let alone the same sentence as PFTers.