Originally Posted by
gloopy
For 1. you started this under the DPA thread, so your implication that the national union pays your freight wasn't implied. However frozen lab conditions will apply, so you won't get your yearly raises for as long as it takes for you to get the first CBA...which WILL be massively patterned on existing peer set contracts. To think otherwise is foolish. Do the UAL/AA FA's, for example, have it way better than you in all respects, or even in the aggregate? I honestly don't know. If they do, then that could be a reason for you to unionize. But, again ONLY if you have the unity.
2. Just how far exactly do you think you are behind all your unionized peer set FA work groups? What have they gotten per year on average during that time? If its head and shoulders above your group, then you certainly have a point. If, however, they're plodding along trying to fight for the same (or close) average annual percentages that y'all have essentially gotten with zero effort, then how exactly do you project you will be the lone standouts in the industry to shatter the trends? And more importantly, how do you think you will shatter the trends with barely enough unity to get +1 to mail in a simple card?
3. You can't say FX voted in ALPA in year XYZ and now have an awesome CBA therefore we can do the same. They were union for a while first anyway. Apples to Chevrolets. And you certainly can't say that ALPA = contract awesomeness anymore than you can say AFA does. For each stellar example there are tons of examples that don't exactly carry that narrative.
4. While that's highly speculative (to the point of wishful thinking) you would also have a lot of yes voters who would sit back and wait for awesomeness to roll in. Mail in a card, wait, success! Its not like that. If you want to leverage much from a union you need a LOT of membership effort. If DALPA gets a great CBA (HIGHLY disputed at this point, as DALPA has already given us one turd with more pre-agreed upon concessions in the upcoming one coupled with a 3 week lockout because we wouldn't agree to further concessions to partially offset existing peer set pay) then how exactly do you think AFA will deliver a grand slam to your group that's head and shoulders above other existing AFA groups, especially if your group barely has the motivation to barely cross the finish line for the relatively low threshold of a card drive in the first place?
5. Agreed. So now ask yourself why does this never happen? Then explain how you will get AFA/IBT/whoever to make you the lone shining trend busting example. Now explain how you will do this unprecedented heavy lifting if you can barely even get 50%+1 to mail in a free card?
6. You did hit on a legitimate theoretical concern here. Significant widespread unjustified terminations would certainly be a reason to unionize, all things equal. But, hyperbole aside, is this really happening? What percentage of DL FA's are getting canned compared to other unionized airlines? You can't really list this as a primary factor without knowing the actual numbers. I'm sure you know of so and so who got canned for such and such, etc. But if the overall number isn't far off from what unionized groups experience in the first place, then its hardly a reason to unionize...
Again, I'm not urging you not to unionize. That's up to y'all. I'm just saying that if you don't have the unity, you will end up with feckless leadership that produces highly questionable results. Ask us how we know.
1. AFL-CIO affiliation was brought up so that's how the topic got started. I don't know of any AFL-CIO affiliate union that represents flight attendants that doesn't foot the entire cost of initial contract negotiations. You stated we'd start paying dues immediately...but that isn't the case. Hourly rates at AA/UA are very similar to those at Delta but they enjoy much better work rules and health benefits...worth millions of dollars per year.
2. We're quite a bit behind our peers (UAL currently voting on a TA) if you exclude base hourly rates (which are nearly identical). The difference is in the health insurance benefits, work rules etc. It's not about mailing in a card, you have to get 50%+1 of the entire work group to do it in a 365 day period or they expire. Yes, it shouldn't be that hard but many people are complacent and/or don't care (unfortunately). It doesn't mean we should just give up.
3. FedEx was non-union first...until they voted in ALPA in the early 90s with 44% of the vote (plus 12% that voted for a different union). I'm not saying voting in a union by a small majority will equal success...i'm saying it won't always equal failure (which is your position) since other work groups have made it work well for them.
4. I don't expect a grand slam, a first contract never is (history). A first contract builds a foundation. Having pay, compensation, and benefits would result in substantial QOL improvements for DAL flight attendants and would add a layer of accountability and transparency by DAL management (the real reason I think they don't want us to unionize).
5. I said pilot unions will ALWAYS have to do the heavy lifting. Why? Money. F/A unions have dues at around $40-60 per month which just isn't enough to fight multi-billion dollar corporations. F/A unions should work on closing some of the loopholes left open by pilot unions at each respective airline. Even closing 1 minor loophole equals a victory. NWA F/As had decent scope protections as did UAL F/As prior to bankruptcy.
6. Of course Delta doesn't release numbers. Why would they? Delta's tactic is to always bring you in, alone, with at least 2-3 management persons and get you to resign instead of terminating you. Why? To avoid possible unemployment liabilities and possible lawsuits. I know at least a few who have been terminated without "just cause". An arbitrator would overturn such terminations in a heart beat. But, as I said...that's why Delta really doesn't want a union for F/As. Not so much for the money...but because of the accountability and transparency which is missing.