Just going broad/big picture here.........
Originally Posted by
skypine27
This may be exaggerated (i made it out of the commuters 15 years ago) but....
My friends who ended up stuck there (Lost Decade guys with "too much" captain time) are telling me that UAL and DAL are snatching up young 3 year FOs left and right, instead of pulling guys from the top end of the seniority list.
Again, they may be exaggerating, but pulling from regional FOs instead of captains isn't going to help the commuter shortage either
It's an exaggeration, on a couple levels;
1) It's not "too much" captain time. It's that they're seen as "career stagnant" if they have nothing other than lots of PIC time. All it does it make them very very "average" in the applicant pool. More on this in a bit, keep reading.
2) Young FO's are not getting "snatched up left and right". Simply that compared to 2007-2008 and pre 9/11, it's just more than ever. Again, keep reading. The bulk/majority of new hires at (insert legacy here) STILL have PIC at a minimum. But pilots without it are more common, or less uncommon then before.
All the little pie charts and graphs put out by (insert company's union here) show this. Both in age, and experience level.
Originally Posted by
Duesenflieger
There is no way that young FOs are being snatched up unless they are female, black or prior military pilot. New and old captains are being hired at the majors.
Sort of correct. I flew with plenty of IMD FO's that were hired as well as OMD that were hired.
Originally Posted by
Duesenflieger
of the old timers complaining don't update their apps or do any of the expected stuff that mainline HR wants to see like volunteering.
Mostly correct. I know plenty of the people you're talking about. I ALSO know many that DO those things, have been to multiple job fairs, and have had their apps reviewed by (insert reputable company here) to be told "great, you should be getting an invite soon!!!". Only to hear crickets......
Originally Posted by
PermaFo
Like it or not... it IS happening. What sets them apart is anyone's guess, but ive seen it personally half a dozen times in the last 2 years.
Again, correct. But as far as the bold, there's usually common themes.
Originally Posted by
Quarryman
This old mantra of "paying your dues" went out the window when the rules of the game were selectively applied. You just didn't get hired at <insert major/legacy airline here> because you failed to wear the correct color tie given the day of the week you interviewed. Yes, that might be hyperbole but you get the point.
You betcha they have every right to complain. They were just paying their dues....until the dues simply didn't matter anymore.
Or rather, in the era they came up in, they were simply doing what was seen as competitive and desired by the legacies. Now, the goal post has shifted some what. I WAS, get PIC time, as much PIC time as you can, in as many aircraft types as you can.
Now, the crappy part is this; After sucking up the dark decade and being 10+ years down the road, a little thing called "life" happens to many.
IOW, got married, had kids, bought a house, what have you. Do you blame them? I was there for the full dark decade. Are people supposed to put their life on hold and NOT do things to progress in life and, ya know, be an adult? All the while having NO CLUE when it will turn around and the hiring will resume?
Point I'm getting at is, for those guys doing all the extra stuff BESIDES the PIC sometimes just isn't going to happen. They've been furloughed, displaced, multiple base closures, whatever. Now they're commuting to their 3rd-4th-5th base at min days off with a crappy schedule. Their "volunteer work/community service" is being home and playing the part of father/husband on their precious time off in many cases.
Originally Posted by
MiLa
I was a regional FO hired at a legacy 2 years ago (I'm not a woman or minority). I did safety work at my regional and years of volunteer (most of it in college.) It does happen, but from what I've observed most of the FOs hired are doing something a little extra than flying the line. Not saying that's right or wrong, it's just what I've observed... that said, the vast majority of people getting hired are captains. My class had 2 FOs out of 24 and I would guess that's probably the norm.... So yes FOs are being hired, but I would hardly say they are being snatched up in droves over captains...
^^^^^Case in point/game set match/mic drop.
I can't tell you how many FO's I flew with that were complaining about other FO's getting hired and not understanding why they can't. I'd ask them, "you volunteer/job fair/have any other jobs like CRM-safety-ground school-union positions?"
They're answer; "no, I don't have the time/money to do that stuff"
Cool, not many people do, but that's what it takes, like it or not.
Sadly, those of us that have been around long to watch all this really really hoped that by now, the regionals would be imploding and in full on crisis mode at this point. As much as guys like to think it's there, IT'S NOT. Flights still go, they still attract (enough) pilots. There aren't en masse cancellations, what have you. The world keeps spinning........
But it's still a long long ways to the point that pilots with no PIC and just a basic resume and nothing extra get a "cold call" from a legacy, sorry, that's just the way it is.
Originally Posted by
CBreezy
Many majors want more than just some guy who is going to sit up front and push buttons. Whether you like it or not, an airline pilot is, at least in part, a customer service job. Major airlines want someone who is going to go out of their way to engage the customer base and community. They can tell if you can fly a jet by looking at your PRIA documents and experience.
You'd think. But sadly, we ALL KNOW those that have crappy training records, discipline files, and even things on their record and get through. That's cool, good for them!!!! But for right here, and RIGHT NOW, there's STILL a crap ton of very good people with clean records NOT getting the invites.