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Old 02-16-2018, 08:20 AM
  #15  
Adlerdriver
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Scruffy - you have drawn some conclusions about this based on inaccurate information.
I apologize for the size of the approach plate. My upload kung fu failed. Here's a link:
http://code7700.com/leadership_styles.htm
You have to scroll down a bit to find it.

Originally Posted by Scruffydog7347 View Post
It's hard for me to believe that they might have used KLP in reverse sensing with mountains in the area above the MDA.
As Galaxy Flyer stated, there is no such thing as "reverse sensing" when using an NDB. You flying a course (technically called a bearing when using NDBs) either to or from the station. Doing one or the other creates no inherent problem for the pilot. As far as mountains go, if you look at the area, there aren't any between KLP and the runway. So terrain would have no effect on their use of KLP (or CV for that matter).

Originally Posted by Scruffydog7347 View Post
Yet if they had tuned to CV, it would've shown about 100 degrees clockwise from the nose of the aircraft by the time they hit that mountain. They should've had plenty of warning.
You keep coming at this as if they had a choice in the navaids and how they used them. The fact that they could only tune one makes much of this discussion kind of silly. They never should have attempted this approach without the ability to tune both of the required NDBs.

However, I found the approach plate in use at the time (see below or the link up top) The primary navaid for this approach - i.e. the one providing final approach guidance is KLP. That's why the final approach course (119) is depicted outbound from that navaid with the black arrow. That's also why KLP is shown in the title header of the approach plate.

KLP is the navaid that was required to be used to provide final approach guidance. This is a fact and isn't an area open to interpretation or the whims of a particular pilot from one day to the next. It's possible that CV was designed exclusively to be what it's labeled on the approach - a Locator (Lctr). It's design and signal strength may not have been certified for any other use. It's only purpose on this approach is to identify the missed approach point (MAP). Period - dot.

It's perfectly acceptable to have a single NDB (CV for instance - if it was certified for that use) act as the IAF and MAP while also providing course guidance to the runway. Those types of NDB approaches are required to include a procedure turn using an on-airfield NDB. There is no FAF (final approach fix) in these types of NDB approaches. The pilot flies over the NDB away from the field, executes the procedure turn, reversing course and tracks inbound back toward the NDB (and the field). Station passage signals the MAP. However, that's not how this approach was built. In fact, it was not legal for CV to be used as the primary navaid for this approach because it was located too far away from the runway. In order for a single NDB to be considered "on airport" and used as the primary, it has to be within 1 mile of any portion of the runway.

Once an NDB approach is built with a FAF (like this one), there are different criteria involved in the requirements for the approach. One important difference is there must be a method of identifying the FAF. With this criteria comes added accuracy and lower minimums which I'm guessing was required in that area due to the surrounding terrain.

Originally Posted by Scruffydog7347 View Post
With them wanting to fly a course of 119 degrees and a wind at 4,000 from 160 at 25 kts, they probably would've had to have flown a heading of about 124. That would've put the ADF needle to the left of center and with mountains to the left, they should have never let that needle get right of center, yet in the end, if they were tuned into CV, again, it would've been about 100 degrees right of center.
Sounds like someone's been using the Whiz Wheel.
My man..... you're passing an awful lot of judgement from that armchair at zero knots. But, you bet - there's a lot of things they "should have never" let happen. When they hit KLP at 220 clean, they should have just gone around, held, asked for a vector.

I think you're forgetting what was happening from KLP inbound as we now discuss 119 versus 124 degrees displayed on a 2.5" dial while flying almost 4 miles a minute and trying to pick-up a proper course after station passage. These two pilots were asses and elbows trying to get their jet slowed, configured while descending 2000 feet in less than 6 miles.

Everyone agrees they should never have been there in the first place. But if you think they were aware of the need for a 5 degree course correction at that moment in their lives, you simply do not have an appreciation of what they were experiencing.

Originally Posted by Scruffydog7347 View Post
I said it puzzled me that they found the ADF tuned to KLP. One gentleman explained that when you execute a missed approach, in this case, you would tune back to the previous ADF which was KLP.
I can almost guarantee you they never took the ADF control head off KLP. That was their REQUIRED method of final approach guidance. Have you ever used an ADF to tune an NDB. The set these pilots were using was all manual. You have to ID the station using the morse code identifier before you're legal to use it. You can't just dial in a frequency and switch back and forth on a whim.

You can see on the approach plate, there is in fact a timing block. Just a guess, but I'd say it's reasonable to assume they planned on using timing to identify the MAP while tracking the final approach course. While not legal, this would be the way I would have flown that approach if I had no other option. So, there was no one trying to retune KLP from CV during the missed approach.

Originally Posted by Scruffydog7347 View Post
The accident report said the gear and the flaps were down, but the engines were at a high power level which indicates to me that they just started the procedure for the missed approach, by applying power, but hit the mountain before they could clean up the airplane.
That's possible. They were essentially abeam the MAP after drifting north of course, so it was probably about the time for them to go around. They could have also gotten a face full of mountain in the last few seconds and firewalled the power in an attempt to climb to safety.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
NDB Rwy 12.jpg (10.8 KB, 89 views)

Last edited by Adlerdriver; 02-16-2018 at 08:43 AM.
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