Originally Posted by
MTSUFlyer
A lot of great info on here. Thanks everyone for your input.
In regards to upgrade times, the numbers I have are telling me that it will take unit 2034 for someone hired today to get to 50% on the seniority list. This is based off of mandatory retirements only. There's been a couple comments on here as well as several of my UPS buddies that think that someone hired today could upgrade on a junior fleet (A300 or ONT) in anywhere from 4-8 years. That's a big difference from 13 years. The three things I see that support ~13 years are:
-44% of the seniority list having been hired sine 2012. Most my buddies that are telling me 4-8 years were hired anywhere from 1-5 years ago with most of them hired in 2017. At the point they were hired, only 15% of the seniority list was new hirers. They were at the beginning of the wave and I could see very quick upgrades for them.
-Mandatory Retirement Numbers: I attached a screen shot of the mandatory retirements that shows 50% of the seniority list will retire by 2034. It's not really possible to account for guys retiring early, but I know that COVID has convinced a lot of guys to retire early. Who knows if that trend will continue.
-Fleet Growth: Significant fleet growth or a larger seniority list with the current fleet would justify earlier upgrade times. Maybe this is the aspect I'm missing. It's my understanding UPS has 8 aircraft on order? Are these just to replace the MD? The "better not bigger" strategy seems to make me think UPS will prefer to continue offering 150% on open time pick up to avoid fleet growth.
Can someone comment on what's the rationale supporting 4-8 years?
On a separate note, a big benefit I hear about UPS is that the block time to total pay ratio is a lot lower. At Delta, assuming no premium pay, my block to pay ratio is about 80%. Most of my UPS buddies are in the 60's with a wide range anywhere from 55-80% depending on their fleet. The block time at Delta might be higher but I can say I truly enjoyed going to work here (pre-covid). My ideal trip is a 3 or 4 day with a 20-30 hour Caribbean layover. In 2019, I was getting a couple of those a month. I've read on here quite a bit about the different types of trips. Specifically on the A300 (top of my dream sheet), I've heard that it goes south of the border and the slower cruise speed tends to drive more layovers. Are there comparable layover options? Having a 3 or 4 day trip with a nice layover seems more appealing to me personally than the 4 am-noon day trips a lot of my UPS buddies prefer to do.
- Upgrade times - historically, we have a lot of bypass bidders which will speed up the time for those wanting early upgrades.
- yes, you aren’t catching the early part of the hiring wave but you aren’t on the tail end either
- Fleet - no one knows but you are correct that UPS has been and always will be highly reluctant to expand the airline. See BoilerUP’s data above.
- Block times - we are usually paid on rig, soft time, whatever. 3-400 block hours per year would be my guess for the groups annual average.
- Beach destinations - this is not the airline for that. Just not our market. There’s some SJU but I don’t know which fleet is doing it - seems to bounce around. HNL on the 74 and MD. 76 does a little Hawaii too. 3-4 day trips to a beach resort doesn’t happen on any fleet.
- Airbus isn’t really known for having the best schedules. Seems a lot of guys are bidding off because the schedules have gotten bad on the thing.
- “Having a 3 or 4 day trip with a nice layover seems more appealing to me personally than the 4 am-noon day trips”. Absolutely correct but we don’t really have short trips with long layovers in any sort of frequency on any fleet. On the bus it’s a lot of week on week off night sort, turns, then the mixed bag lines.
- If I were you, I’d jumpseat through our system this week or next. Go SDF - PHL - SDF or EWR, DFW and do the ones that start at 3am and get back around noon. See what you think of the schedule, the crews, the operation.
I’m not going to elaborate on the reasons I’d hypothetically trade spots with you cuz this thread is about your reasons and the point I was trying to make is that some of us here think this is the cat’s ahss of flying jobs while others (like me) shrug our shoulders a bit.
For getting a better idea of the UPS employee culture here’s the best example I can come up with:
Years ago I banked with WashingtonMutual. I had direct deposit, checking card, etc., everything worked fine. Yet, there was always something when dealing with that bank. An incorrect ATM fee here, a BS overdraft fee there (the games they’d play with when things would post to your account), surprise fees for this or that. That all wasn’t actually the problem. The problem was when you tried to deal with them, everything was a fight; you were always in the wrong. I had to prove the ATM was in their network. I had to prove they delayed certain deposits / transfers. Sometimes they’d recant and do what was right but more often they would just tell me to go screw myself. Cannot tell you how happy I was to switch to a credit union. The difference was so tangible that I stayed away from the big banks for over 15 years and still prefer my credit union (DECU ironically) today.
UPS is like WaMu. Sure, you can deal with it and live your life, but it’s just unpleasant. Like having a toxic person in your close circle. You have to be a lawyer here: screen shot everything, record phone calls, go over your paycheck with a fine tooth comb. Then you have to fight, often with people who never pick up their phone or bother to call you back or wait a week or two before responding to your email, if ever. Then you have to watch like a hawk everything they do to you scheduling wise which is a royal pain in the rear because we have not only have a very complex contract but you also have to incorporate the meaning and intent articles and grievance history precedents to know exactly what the provisions are. The company will lie, cheat, and blatantly disregard the contract on a regular basis. No, usually not in big, vulgar ways, just little things here and there. Not the end of the world and you can learn to live with it but given the choice, would you want to, voluntarily?