Originally Posted by Shorttimer2

Can real Money be made at Atlas, yes, certainly.

Has real money been made by guys and gals in the last few years with special COVID pays, yes of course.

But relax it’s no utopia and I see some coming here because the sales pitch has been selling the dream again.

Atlas has two singular treats, Gateway Travel and Article 33, which like the PSA’s contract for instructors to make $435 only lasts 2 years, at present. Article 33 pay at Atlas is slowly going away, it only pays 175 % for the trip in and out of certain COIVD locations. Some idiot in proposed recently buying vacation for 150% pay…… make it make sense. You can literally drop your line, pickup over your vacation grab enough Article 33 and make a killing for the top guys. Why on earth except some leaving sell their vacation????

How long is Article 33 going to last, not long at all. At present, it’s mostly for trips into China. So, why 175% ? who the F knows some combination of incompetence during the union negotiation and the managements deep hatred for the pilot group. Don’t be fooled by the nice smiles on day 1 of indoc, this management team is being retain supposedly by Apollo some say not, some say it’s a ploy for the share price, I don’t care it’s all b.s. anyway. They are all the same so it doesn’t matter.

Most places secretly hate labor anyway because C-suite pay packages are based on delivering high share prices and dividend returns to the shareholders and not a great employment experience for you. If the C-suite folks at any airline could get away with passengers standing up for an entire flight, strapped in like sardines, they would; no seats, no nothing that’s how the system works.

Many, if not most, companies only do things because they are forced or regulated to do so and only after many, many years of fighting. Never because they are asked, nor because they want to be equitable with their labor and even when they say that’s the case, they are lying. Look at a Google, at one point, they had rainbows and permanent sunlight piped into everyone’s offices and up everyone’s you know what. But the minute times get challenging….well the story is always the same. So, for you younger pilots if you dare set out on this path all the money being made now, please shovel that crap into some serious investments because the airline industry is a game of musical chairs and the music always stops at some point.

What normally happens with most places is that the C-suite folks are pretty generous when the company is on the way up. But in a capitalist system, everything is cyclical hence what goes up must come down and there is money to be made at the very top both up and down; failure or success these people always make a bag, see Elizabeth Holmes who’s probably stashing 100s of millions in Jersey or Switzerland. The point is that these folks can do no wrong and still make a bag, sure I will take 11.25 years in a no fence prison for a couple of years with good behavior if I really do some crazy sh%t.

But not if you are labor. When the down times comes, it comes hard and crushes the people at the bottom. On the way up the C-suite folks know each other, they went to the same 10 top schools, they are like a fellowship of ring bearers. They all play at the same golf courses and enjoy the same clubs and each other’s wives and husbands. They are almost never not unaware of when the end is coming, they know when and how to jump ship early. If you jump early for these folks, then your pay out might be slight larger than when the decline starts; but in either case, they are not going to be hurt by it. They simple call their fellow ring bears for the next speed boat into shore while they watch the sinking ship sipping champagne. When these folks get to shore they simply dust themselves off and with a bag a cash in both hands they find a new ship and the cycle repeats.

Cynical you say, well live long enough much of this will come to pass over and over again.

In other Atlas Air Worldwide news, CEO John W. Dietrich sold 39,463 shares of the company’s stock in a transaction dated Monday, August 1st. The shares were sold at an average price of $84.13, for a total value of $3,320,022.19.

I rest my case……..


The management at Atlas ( C-suite ) folks fought this pilot group tooth and nail. They ended up getting a highly favorable contract imposed on the pilot group by a biased mediator during years of contract negotiations so nasty you would rather get a divorce as a guy in the USA Family kangaroo courts. Most national mediators are biased by the way, since the corporate elites have long since hollowed out the country so that the levers of power are controlled by them……. but I disgress.

Read Thomas Friedman on how the future of stratification of people will exist in the future…….

Consequently, you have a mish mash contract that is barely understandable particularly for the pay sections; but truthfully most compensation sections are normally only understood by the two or three pay clerks that handle for like 15000 pilots, who never answer the f ing email or calls and then a handful of pilots who helped negotiated the contract…..everyone else it is PFM and it literally is.

But when Article 33 pay goes away here, you will see an exodus of quite a number off the bottom on the list is my guess.

Recently, the company use to allow you to have tickets from overseas locations to your base if the cost was essentially the same. Now foreign pilots (which we have a lot of Aussie Pilots) or those living overseas have to find their way to a gateway city and then the company will buy the domestic ticket to your base. Now you might have thought this system is fool proof, it’s not. This contract allows the company making north of 5 billions a year to suddenly do things under some clause you never even heard of or would think would be allowed to exist. So, what the Teamsters say about this you say…..hmmm I will leave it to your imagination.

Right now, Alaska, Delta, United, are slaying new contract pays that are crazy good at the moment. Since 2014/15 Atlas had a pilot group of about 2500 roughly. As of December 2022, maybe 2800 and change. They lose pilots here like nowhere I have ever seen. They have so many holes in the bucket they are literally too many to believe. But at the moment, the company is making a mint hence why they were bought out by Apollo and the C-suite don’t care because………

In other Atlas Air Worldwide news, CEO John W. Dietrich sold 39,463 shares of the company’s stock in a transaction dated Monday, August 1st. The shares were sold at an average price of $84.13, for a total value of $3,320,022.19.

I rest my case……..



Ohh by the way acquisitions are worked out many moons before its even announced…remember these folks go to the same schools and have each other’s chairman and BODs on speed dial.

While the other airlines are begging for pilots Atlas seems able to recruit a crap ton of pilots seemly a lot of hard luck and inexperienced pilots at this point relying heavily on Captains to know what the hell they are doing. Before last month, the loss rate was 2 a day now it’s something closer to 1 a day.

Like I said, you can’t tell a pilot not to come since Atlas and others sell the dream hard. But truthfully, if you’re smart and have enough runway and time on your hands you can come here get a type rating and be off to another company quite nicely which is seemly is what most are doing at this point once they realize the Atlas dream is a myth.

Right now, upgrade on the 737 is about 1.5 to 2 years. Why because nobody wants to fly it ,the line values are very low so you will only fly 60-70 a month at best and there’s no article 33 pay on the 737. A first year FO on the 747 can out pace a 737 Captain easily with article 33 pay and based in anchorage.

The 767/777 is really closer to 4.5 to 6 years at this point.

747 is more like 5.5 to 7 years as of my snap shot.

Training right now, they are sending people home for months at a time at this point. Why? Because C suite folks don’t have to be successful or competent or anything else. You collect a bag in both hands and if your speed boat pulls up in time you jump in and get clutch your BAGs.

Training despite what they say on the 747, 777/767 can take 4 months once training begins. To keep up with this crazy attrition Atlas has to keep hiring by the truck load and can barely afford to have standards. It’s why they got rid to some extent a lot of memorization that you use to have to do during training. Right now, Atlas has a limited number of sims that they can use. The training departments is put politely a sh&tshow.

They do have a seat lock period except in upgrades and a few other exceptions.

For the 747 guys it is a dead rating except for maybe Lufthansa and are you going to Lufthansa.

Count on about $1500 to 2220 every two weeks after taxes etc etc if the company sends you home. Again, they are sending many people home for months, count on $1300 to 1800 after taxes. It all depends on your elections for heatlh care 401 k etc etc


Atlas from way back, like Kalitta which no older timer ever thought would be the size that it is now. But like ATI, Gemini, ABX, etc etc all these cargo companys were never a real destinations for a long term . Cargo pilots have always gotten treated more poorly that passenger pilots and that is saying a lot since times in the passenger flying have been pretty sh&tty. They have always gotten away with more than passenger companies in many cases. Those who stayed to fight the good fight were either trapped or unable to go anywhere else.

The Atlas pilot group is composed on an eclectic group of pilots from all walks and all over the world. In this case, what happens is that you can never build any consensus or cohesion because everyone is basically out for themselves. Those who stay here either needed it because they live overseas or needed time off in bunches which is achievable or if they have a hustle they need time off to both fly and work on their side gig or they could not go anywhere else or are in love with big jets to compensate for eh em or several divorces later or some combination. Can the top guys make a mint yes of course like anywhere else…..which the Union at Atlas seems to be comprised of mostly….. so they speak and negotiate for themselves.. Atlas is composed of two pilot groups the Miami Mafia and then the rest of us. Miami is its own different world with secret hand shake deals and all sort of other f788ery you can’t believe. So, be prepare for that….I will leave it at that since the mafia is strong and silent…. they might be out my door right now in snow boots waiting to bury my as**

[A bit of advice from an old timer, time and quality of life can’t and don’t come easily in this business or anywhere in life, which truthfully is why this profession is hurting for pilot. College age folks would be better served far more highly lucrative professions than piloting less you get trap in this spiral that is the airline world unable to leave because you have gotten too deep and too old or unskilled or several divorces in.

Remember piloting is the only profession, SORRY I MEANT TO SAY JOB, in the USA that forces you to start over at the bottom no matter where you are in your career. Piloting is seasonal gig. The seasons can be a few years to 20 + years in rare cases. Professions are Doctors and lawyers. Yes, I know some of the crazy old timers who use to wear sunglasses while in the airport or still do, with their spit shined shoes and pressed shirts and spiffy hats would tell you otherwise. But take it from an old grunt, it’s a gig. {No I am not telling not to iron your shirt, look professional damn it even if it’s a job.}

}


Why do you start over at the bottom?. So, imagine ALPA, Teamsters etc etc none of them have been able to challenge this. The corporate elites have hollowed out the country and bought out the politicians. Every minute as we speak, companies are busying themselves figuring out how they can unravel the Colgan accident road block to recruiting pilots with 250 hours or less; which if truth be told is effectively what you still have with schools like ATP trying to magically pump out pilots in 6 months. There used to be years of maturation to getting to your ATPL that doesn’t seem to exit anymore, but I digress. But seriously, there is a proposal to fly domestically only one pilot airplanes. Remember, any benefit that labor gets is only temporary because C suite folks never sleep dude they never ever say die. They will relentless try to find ways to cut your benefits and pay at every turn.

At present, Atlas reportedly has hundreds of Australian pilots waiting in the wings many recruited by the Atlas Teamsters Union for the benefit of the company; make it make sense to anyone. Now, I have been around. I have never heard of a Union so inept as to recruit for the company with a crazy contract, especially with a management team that truly hate the pilot group. It’s nuts really. Only in the USA do we make it easier for other people to undermine our contracts with foreign labor. Try going to Australia or Europe and converting your USA ATPL to EASA or the CASA ATPL, you will be in for a treat. Now granted many pilots in Australia are basically out of work and in Europe decimated by COVID. From that stand point, I sympathize. It is a sh*t show, but having your own union recruit is crazy. This is of course removes any leverage for making changes to the pay and terms since they have pilots clawing their way into the gates. China for foreign pilots is basically over only some real hard luck cases hanging onto a handful of positions in China. It’s especially dead because they got rid of salaried flying to better control the foreign pilot group which is the package they are trying to sell right now if you could get into the country fro the sh***t pay…..but believe me they will f you over in China, but I digress.


So, you want to fly long haul. Be careful with this, it really takes a lot of stamina to fly long haul even with a bunk. You will reach destinations and be wiped out to point of not being able to move your arms and legs once you fall into bed. This has a very detrimental effect on your body long term if you fly often enough. You have to be built a certain way for long haul or even medium haul. You can do an ANC to HKG then HKG to ICN. Duty can be up to 22 hours in some cases. When you arrive at the hotel you might on day one hit “da club” but day 7,8, 9,10….16 It’s exhausting and you will have to be in good shape and stay healthy or your retirement may come earlier than you want.

At Atlas, you can call fatigue and they are very responsive.

Things you can’t do.

Early bids package
Trip Trade easily
Line Improvements
Easy Trip drops
Trip pick ups
Bid less than 17 days

Are these things coming supposedly, but don’t hold your breath at the moment? Of course, some of these items are a function of the business model so there are limitations to a few things for sure.

Can you get many days off? Yes, but not right away. If you think you can just bid a line 17 days off up front on the month then the next month bid back half….ahhh no!.. Sure, you can if you have been here many years, you might be able to pull off the right line but most of the lines are not built that way. You’re going to do 17 days on most months but not front end or backend; and you can be extended beyond 17 days with limits. Doesn’t happen at the moment but it can be done.

One of the craziest things here is out basing which pays 130-140 hours to be on call for 30/31 days…..NOT 17 days 30/31 days….no days off except rest. Now if you think you will be at the out base all month you will have another thing coming except for the recent Sydney out basing. You are going to spend most of the month on the road.

Be careful with your choices here. This took me 1 hour and I didn’t even cover all the other crazy things so imagine why people are still leaving. Ask your selves, as miserable as some say UPS and FedEx guys are right now. How many of them are jumping ship for other places…..I will wait !!!