Originally Posted by
flyguy81
I’ve got friends hired in 2007-8 at Delta/United who are still FO’s by choice. Some are on the 767, 330. Some are on the 717/737/320. Would you give up being home every night and having 4 day weekends to commute across the country to sit rsv in a crashpad covering 3 airports? I wouldn’t…not a pile of money big enough.
Upgrade time being 6 mos is an anomaly because the people who “should” be bidding it want nothing to do with it. Similar to how 900 FO’s here aren’t bidding it. People have their own reasons for why they bid what they do. You can’t and shouldn’t count on it being an available option forever.
If I was going to commute anyway and my schedule was going to suck for awhile…some might as well bid to CA and make $. However, on the flip side…seniority progression on the NB is so fast you’re screwing your QOL by taking the quick upgrade since you’re locked on the plane for 2 years. A LOT can happen in 2 years on a NB FO list vs the bottom of a 767 CA list (hint…you’re never getting off rsv, working all holidays and weekends and you’re still not getting WB pay).
We've got guys here hired pre-2007, 2008 who are still FO's by choice. As a result of FO's bypassing CA upgrade here at SWA (the people, I guess, who "should" be bidding it), we also have some of the same sort of artificial seniority that you're describing at Delta. The fact is, at Delta, despite whatever drawbacks there are to it, and the fact that some Delta FO's that "should" be bidding it aren't, the six-month upgrades on the 767 are getting filled by pilots willing to do it. Same here.
Some of our bypassing FO's want nothing to do with CA upgrade if it means commuting or sitting reserve or flying four-days or flying three-days or whatever. CA upgrade at SWA isn't appealing enough for some of our FO's to compel them to make the leap. But it is compelling enough for some of our other FO's to make the leap as soon as they possibly can despite all of the downsides to doing so. Just like at Delta. Isn't it like that at pretty much every airline without a forced upgrade?
What upgrade time are you suggesting we use for DL and what upgrade time are you suggesting we should use for SWA besides the actual earliest available upgrade times to arrive at a comparison that you consider fair? And how are you arriving at those times?
Originally Posted by
flyguy81
My thinking on 757 pay: typically the biggest plane in a fleet yields the most pay due to: cargo capacity, revenue generation due to more seats, etc. Y’all sold the farm on getting a -800 override for a bag of magic beans so unlike overrides ar NK, B6, UAL…we have a UPS type pay scale. Our all coach configuration holds as many people as a UAL/DL 757 and aircraft range is similar (especially with the Max). If we can negotiate 777 pay….I’ll take that check all the way to the bank and laugh while I’m doing it.
I think that’s a pipe dream though. I think realistic goals should be fixing contract language, fixing disability, retirement NEC %, etc and being the highest paid NB pilots. I won’t agree to any concessions, and I also don’t think we should neglect other things that need fixing in lieu of pay rates (ask a DL guy what they’d give up to have health insurance with $0 premiums and a $300 deductible).
And now, for the
far more important issue. WHY do you think it's a pipe dream to achieve DL or better career compensation and industry-leading benefits and work rules? That's a critical question. It goes to the heart of why we have, overall, an industry-lagging contract.
What holds us back from achieving career pay and retirement better than DL's? What holds us back from achieving industry-leading work rules and benefits?
It's definitely not the RLA. The RLA does not, in any way, require us to limit ourselves to NB-only demands. Again,
read this for a primer on why that is so. If you think I'm missing something on that issue, I'm all ears.
So, what is it that's holding us back? Is it the pilot group? Is it SWAPA? Is it that, strategically, for pattern bargaining's sake, we don't want the best career compensation, retirement, work rules, and benefits (I had a former "SWAPA 1.0" VP on my JS who made that claim)? Is it that we don't know how to achieve it? Is it that the company won't agree to it? Is it that we don't understand the economic power or "weapons" available to us? Is it that it's too hard or will take too long? Is it Bob Jordan or Carl Kuwitzky?
What exactly is standing in our way?