Originally Posted by
kycycles
who are you to determine how much the top brass should get paid? ITS NOT YOUR COMPANY, ITS NOT YOUR JOB.
poor management consists of allowing the unions in.
Look at Walmart the unions have been knocking on their doors since the beginning. Walmart said no..they did not fold to the pressure, and i applaud them.
One of two things will happen when the unions come in and start squeezing colgan for money. 1:if you are lucky, the cost will simply be past on to the consumer and things will keep ticking along 2: the more likely scenario will be, since the economy is in the tank and flying is down anyway, that colgan will have to make it up in the form of lay off's and cutbacks.
There are talks going on to bring foreign airline competition into the market. competition that doesn't have unions. if this happens, u.s. carriers are screwed because they will not be able to compete. i.e. auto makers, the steel industry, many consumer goods industries.
I am sure there will be some nice short term gains from the union.....but you have got to look long term. what good does higher pay do you if the company is not there to pay. if you loose your job you have to start over somewhere else. Colgans pay scale will not get much higher, even with a union.
As far as representation goes. There are many lawers out there...go get on if you need one. i am sure they would love an opportunity wage a lawsuite against an airline. that must have dollar signs written all over it.
Who are you to determine what a pilot should get paid? The fact is that management, just like pilots, are paid what they negotiate. Why would you prevent pilots from exerting as much leverage in what they can negotiate? After all, whatever they are able to negotiate is an AGREEMENT between the two parties.
If poor management is letting a union in then with that definition we might find out soon that Colgan has poor mangement. And all the more reason to have a union.
You give your example of Walmart and I'll give a more apples to apples example of SWA. Thee most unionized airline is also thee most successful.
Anyways, with your two scenerios, number one would be good but if number two happens, it wont be because of a union. Like you have said in your scenerio, "since the economy is in the tank and flying is down anyway, that colgan will have to make it up in the form of lay off's and cutbacks." How would a union change market economy conditions? Any lay offs or cutbacks would only be handled per a negotiated agreement rather than by other subjective or unfair means.
Originally Posted by
kycycles
The bottom line is this: The unions number one priority is to get more money for their pilots, which in turn makes more money for them. they will squeeze the life out of colgan if they can. and from the sound of it, that is what is driving the vote from the pilots, for the most part.
The idea that the pilots are not represented is false. there are lawyers on every corner of every street on this country. If there are so many people that need representation, maybe you should all pitch in and hire one.
There is a lot of complaining going on, but if you really look around and ask around, there are a few pilots out there that are actually in trouble. that wont change when the unions come. pilots are still going to get in trouble. If anything, the unions may help to keep a pilot on that otherwise may need to be fired. they do this by a use of force and intimidation. they force the idea that it is less expensive to let the pilot fly rather than fire him/her and face a law suite from the union. Does this promote saftey?????
i will say it again. you can get what you want without a union.
ALPAs number one proirity is to represent its members in all aspects of aviation, not just pay. They will not "squeeze the life out of colgan" because that would cause job losses. Its unbelievable to me that on one hand you say that ALPA will cause an airline to go out of business so that their pilots can make $500/hr and at the same time say how incompentent ALPA has been in letting concessions happen.
Originally Posted by
kycycles
Colgan is an employer offering you a job..not ownership in their company. How can you say you want to work together when the fundamental idea is that the pilots own this company.
You are angry with on large corporation so you go to another large corporation for help(alpa) do you think alpa would exist if it wasn't for the fact they were making a fortune off the backs of the hard working pilots. They take money from your check every month and 99% of you will never need them or use them.
They push their agenda based on fear. they use these rare, horror stories of problems that no one has any idea is true or not. i believe many of you will wish they were gone once you get them in. 2 or 3% whatever it is they take, adds up quick over the years. a lawyer would be a lot cheaper in the long haul.
i mean really. Colgan has an excellent safety record. the pay is par for the coarse. what is the real issue...????how much do you think the unions are going to give you. in order to over come their take,they would have to force a pay hike greater than the 2-3% that they take...then they just get 2-3% more of your increase. the math does not work for you. i can promise you that it will be a long time before you can recover the union fees. so basically, in the beginning, the unions are going to cause you to loose money. it could be years before you recover that plus some.
ALPA is a not for profit organization. Only one pilot is one the ALPA payroll. ALPA wouldn't exist if there were no managements like Colgan's.
ALPA dues are 1.95%. A pilot group like one of Colgan's size will get more than 1.95% worth of dues back from ALPA. That is because the larger pilot groups subsidize the smaller ones. But you can think of the dues money as an insurance policy. One lawyer or something other than a safety related issue like an issue with your medical will more than likely pay for itself. It is not cheaper or practical to come up with thousands of dollars every time you need a professional advocate rather than to pay a modest amount every month for that possibility. You pay it becuase you need it (because you are not a billionaire) but you hope to never have to use it, just like insurance.
There are no agendas to push other than your own. Pilots are ALPA. ALPA members vote for their representatives and can recall them or not re-elect them if they don't like them. The Colgan ALPA MEC will only be as good as its members. All of its members, not just the MEC.
Originally Posted by
kycycles
i do understand what you are saying. and i understand the anger, that is why i left. i was angry that i was not getting my way. my response to that would be this:
if the union takes 3% of say 20000 for example. that is 600 a year. you receive a pay raise every year, so by the time you top out at 45k or what ever the cap is , you will be paying 1350 a year(based on 45k) 99% of you will never need them, so you will be paying all this money for what? you could have hired a lawyer for less.( in the rare event you need one)
if peace of mind is worth that much, then more power to you. but the peace of mind that they give is false. people will still screw up, planes will still break and people will still ***** about their schedules. you can fix your own problems without the union. an internal organization that is not money driven(like alpa) is a much better solution. all you need is the right leadership. if all the pilots are really "care" about the company it works for and their success, then putting together this kind of effort should be easy.
The problem is, they dont care, and they will not structure this kind of movement. the real motivation is money and perks. They will loose money the minute the unions get the contract.
Your effective dues rate may actually be lower. If you itemized your deductions, you can include all union dues. This will lower your effective dues rate by the same rate as your tax bracket. For example, if you are in the 15% tax bracket, your effective dues rate equals 1.6575%. Or if you are in the 25% tax bracket, your effecitve dues rate equals 1.4625%. If you make $45k a year, that equates to about $650 in total dues for that year or about $55 a month.
But even at 1.95% and $45k a year in wages, you would pay about $875 a year or $75 a month. Again, you can think of ALPA as an insurance policy but you are getting a lot more than that. Even if you never "need" ALPA, your dues money is still working for you in the form of protecting the contract, enhancing safety, being an advocate on your behalf on aviation matters in DC, providing other insurance products at competative rates, and many other things as well.
But just the peace of mind that you will have an airline labor specialist lawyer with you in in the event of a hearing, mdeical certification panel, FAA enforcment action, NTSB administrative law judge, or even at a full hearing in from of the NTSB itself, is worth it. A specialty lawyer will probabaly be more expensive anyways. It has nothing to do with the right leadership because, like you said, people will still make mistakes. After all we are all human and we all make mistakes. Sometimes you just need someone in your corner that knows the ins and outs of the case at hand and who has fiduciary responsibility only to you. Sure, some problems you can fix, at a hefty price, without a union. Like you said, you can always hire that top notch laywer you found in the yellow pages. But there are some things that cannot be fixed without a union. Colgan management had that opportuintiy and the showed that they are not willing to do it without a unoin.
If an internal organization is not money driven, then what funds do they use to operate? Is this internal organization operate of of Colgan managements' funds? And if this is the way to go, why didn't it suceed in the past? Colgan management had the golden opportunity and they blew it. Its not that pilots don't care that doesn't make it work. Its that that type of organization doesn't have the power to do anything that management doesn't give them. And there in itself is the real problem.
I don't beleive the pilots will lose money the minute a contract is agreed upon. Even if its with current pay rates. Pilots will start making more money just on forcing management to actually pay the pilots by the rules and not have to fight tooth and nail for pay that is rightfully theirs.
Originally Posted by
kycycles
Every company has its problems. And they will continue to have their problems with or without a union. I am just saying that these problems can be resolved without the bureaucracy and cost that a union brings with them. Why can the pilots start an internal pilot group. I am sure Colgan would much rather have that than the unions. I would be willing to bet that they would respond much better to something internal.
I have dealt with the unions in nearly every profession i have been a part of. I am telling you that miracles are not going to happen. The only real change most people are going to see is the union dues being deducted from their check. The crappy part of this whole thing is that you have to pay the dues, whether you want to or not.
Again, again, again...there are much better ways to get what you want, that wont take 3% of your check
Whats the difference to management what kind of buearocracy ALPA brings? What cost are you talking about? The cost of actually paying their pilots what they are supposed to be paid?
Of course Colgan would much rather have an internal organization. Because they would not be required to bargain or listen or fund them or anything. Im positive they would respond to this much more favorably as well. And that is precisely why pilots should not try that again. It didn't work in the past and it wont work in the future.
I don't think Colgan pilots are looking for miracles. They just want to be paid fairly and have some work rules put donw on paper that everyone agrees to. And as for paying dues, you could always just opt out and just pay the shop fee which is 1.45% and still tax deductable.
Again, again, again, there are much better ways to get what you want, that wont jerk you around, promise the moon, ignore you, and threaten you, but its not through an internal organization.