Originally Posted by
⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
We seem to disagree 100% on this subject but I enjoyed the discussion…
Your loss, buddy.
Not really a loss; I view it as a huge gain… LOL
One man's trash is another man's gold and vice versa. I also enjoy the discussion.
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Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. When you are the most qualified individual around, you get your chance. If you don't like how it is, the ability to leave and go someplace where you will be given more advancement opportunity is absolutely PRICELESS. That is something you do not have right now and you seem incapable of comprehending the concept. Understandable from someone working exclusively in a union environment.
I have worked in a non-union environment… 1 corporate outfit and 2 very small airlines. What I have witnessed is a good ‘ole boy network where it’s all about who you know and not so much about what you know… I wasn’t the only one who saw the ‘system’ at work but the few who raised their voices were very promptly silenced…
I knew it was a temporary stop for me so frankly I didn’t care that much but felt sorry for the few who were hoping to stay there for the long run…
I'm sorry you have had horrible experience. I also had similar experience flying for a cargo outfit... Let's just say it was a less-than-desirable place to work, but it served its purpose - I built up some multi time to move on. I accepted it as 'paying my dues.' However, how many times do 'professionals' have to "pay their dues?" It is part of gaining experience. Just how you know now that the corporate operator you worked for was less-than-desirable, you should apply that experience in how you handle any future employers. I did. It serves me great.
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Actually, I'm just another corporate pilot who saw the light and left the 121 world in the dust.
After witnessing your ‘most qualified individual’ system at work I knew that the corporate world wasn’t for me… Some love it and I’m happy for them (you) but to claim your ‘most-qualified’ system is superior to a seniority system is very disingenuous at best… Often it works but more often than not it is simply about connections… Has nothing to do with ones qualifications…
I'm not saying that seniority system has no place. I do, however, object to "paying dues" more than once in the same field. In other words, a laid-off ATA or Aloha pilot should get paid more than someone with 500 hours and a wet commercial multi ticket. The seniority system doesn't allow it, and that's the bulk of my argument. You can reward longevity with higher bidding preference when it comes to schedules, vacations, more profit-sharing or bonuses... wait, nevermind... union pilots don't get bonuses.
You get my drift...
When I was hired by my 'career' airline, it was healthy, ordering new airplanes, announcing new routes, etc. Funny how things change...
I don't want you to PAY for my "mistake." I want you to LEARN from my "mistake." Again, you don't seem to value your experience very much, and that's unfortunate. On the other hand, I value mine... and call me elitist if you want, but I value my experience much higher than the first year pay at any airline.
I am sorry to hear about your former airline, I truly am, but I will not expect to get ahead of you if my airline files chapter 11 and I happen to have more time in the type of airplane you fly (or happen to sleep with the chief pilot’s daughter)
Hey, if you can... more power to you. If you aren't "working the system", take pride in treating your crew correctly, and most importantly, providing superior customer service to your passengers or clients... and you do a better job than me, well... you earned it.
I HAVE learned from your (and my) mistakes and that’s why I believe a seniority system is better than your so called ‘qualification’ system… If it worked in real life then I guess I’d consider it but the truth is that system is very flawed because it favors those in the know and not those who know…
You are correct... and it reflects the quality of the operator you are working for. If you work for a dirtbag, the beautiful part is that you can leave and not have to take a massive paycut by doing so. See... in a seniority system, you are at a major disadvantage - you'll have to start in poverty level wages every time, and you cannot vote with your feet. Why do you think managements squander millions and millions on "retaining talent?" Why should they do that with you? It's a question of self-worth.
Not necessarily, but I want them to be able to make a livable wage should Delta ever, God forbid, tank, or they choose to leave. Again, it's called having leverage, which union pilots simply don't have. I want them to be paid in accordance with their TOTAL experience, not their DATE OF HIRE.... make sense?
I know that you want “paid in accordance with their total experience” but what you’ll get is “paid in accordance with connections and the size of their wallets.” So let’s just agree to disagree…
Again, it's the quality of an operator. On the other hand, I can tell you a number of places (including mine) where you're paid based on equipment exclusively. Your date of hire bears no reflection in your paycheck.
Guilty as charged. What can I say... when my salary gets deposited and it's correct; when my working conditions are just as they're spelled out in my contract; when I am treated like a professional that I know I am... I guess you can say that I do believe in what "the management" tells me.
Yeah, my buddy told me that unions were not needed as long as everything is spelled out in the contract… Then JAL simply laid him off… Not saying a union would've saved him but a contract isn't always the answer either...
You're right. But it also depends on who you work for. Having a union does not indicate a victory for employees. Generally, it indicates failure of some kind. Something to keep in mind. But that failure also comes at the expense of employees as well...
The real difference between you and I is that you actually believe in what your UNION tells you. I just know better...
Wrong, I trust no one but myself… however when it comes to it my union seems to protect my interests much better than the management…
Not saying they aren't... but just remember, when your interests aren't the same as the ones of the union, they'll throw you under the bus just as fast as the management. Don't delude yourself in that the union is your friend.
PS. So what's your title anyways?
Same as any four-striper... The Grand Poohbah!