Sure the many interests are important, but we still have our present system of voting on what most people think is most important. In a presidential election we do the same thing. Most electoral votes = new pres. I don't go around saying "He's not my president" because I voted for the other guy... Is the military in the union now? How would you unionize against the US government anyway? Not that they're lesser pilots, but if I got out of the military today and walked into civilian aviation, I'd start at the bottom, just like a guy fresh out of ERU. I respect all cargo pilots immensely. I know that there are cargo outfits out there that could stand some representation. Why put a barrier between the pilot that fly boxes or pax, though?

I see, so we need to ‘protect’ those who lost their jobs flying for airline A but disregard those pilots who happen to be flying for very small operators… Actually if you’re going to use our electoral system I’ll argue that our electoral system protects the small states… If it wasn’t for that system most of our presidents would probably come from California or for New York… Therefore I would argue that IF you’re going to create a NSL for pilots then ALL pilots making money from flying should be allowed to join…

Also, you say that you don’t want to create divisions between cargo and passenger pilots… Well, I thought you felt it was unfair that a pilot who’s let’s say 50 has to start all over again? IF so, shouldn’t that pilot move up a few extra numbers since in the last 25 years he flew nights mainly and now might have fewer years to make up for his/her lost income? I hope you realize I’m being sarcastic, I simply want to show you that the idea of a NSL is doomed to fail because it’s a flawed idea…

Besides, you talk about avoiding divisions? Just wait to see the divisions a NSL would create – the age 65 divide would be nothing comparing to your “affirmative action for pilots”…


Honestly not sure - are these guys certificated pilots or just trained by the military? I would be interested to find out.

Does it matter? Who are we to determine if they’re or are not worthy of joining it? After all, it’s about fairness, right?


To clarify - The point I was trying to make is that if you use the "looking out for my own" rationale, that's what the pilots that engage in these activities are doing. GJ pilots are looking out for GJ guys - why should they care how much TSA guys cry? Same for scabs. If I've been stepped on by a particular facet of the contract that senior guys voted on, why should I care if they go out on strike? I'll just fly and get the good schedules while they're picketing. (I would NEVER do this by the way, I'm just trying to make a point.)

GJ pilots were not looking out for GJ pilots because originally there were no GJ pilots – it was an airline created to kill jobs at TSA as a punishment for TSA pilots wanting more pay to fly larger airplanes… I’m glad to discuss the NSL with you but you’ll never win me on this subject so please drop it… Their behavior was despicable and there’s not much else to be said about that…


Again - see above argument about scabs, etc. I don't see CAL/AA/Eagle pilots as me "competition," they are fellow pilots. Under an NSL they would be "my own."

I was raised in Europe, were you raised on Soviet Union?

Seriously, how can you say that those pilots are not your competition? Do you own your house/condo? Or does it belong to the people? See my point? Your position seem to be more idealistic than Chavez’ over what constitutes a socialistic economy… If you work for a company that has a competitor – the employees at your competitor ARE your competitors too…


I DO see your point here and agree... On the other hand, use British Airways as an example - what BA pilot in their right mind would want anything to do with the work rules and pay we have in the US? Also, according to a friend from the UK, (you know, the old a friend of a friend of a guy that used to know someone's uncle....), seniority over there is transferable and it seems to work out ok.

Your friend’s info is incorrect… I called my Virgin Atlantic acquaintance who laughed at the idea of him holding some kind of “transferable seniority” within the UK… Based on your BA friend’s theory my VA friend should be able to transfer to the British Airways and keep his seniority, right? He said it’s not true and he also agreed that the idea sounds very wrong… He went to Virgin Atlantic when many predicted they wouldn’t survive, others took the safe bet of BA – now that the roles seem to be reversed you want to take away his hard earned seniority from him? Again, it’s the “spread the wealth” mentality…


The competing airlines argument is the most convincing I've heard so far, but are we really competing aginst otherpilots? I mean, come on - we all need to know what we're doing, fly safely and get the pax/boxes there in one piece. We can do that for anybody, and if the qol and pay was the same across the board, would it really matter who? I mean unless someone was in love with the idea of flying for CAL or Delta, what's the difference? If a 76 driver gets paid the same with the same qol no matter where he flies, whats the difference?

Absolutely we are competing – if we aren’t then the whole idea of capitalism is null and void… You seem to think of working for someone as a passive thing – you show up, do your thing and don’t care how your company does… I on the other hand look at it as an active employment; I want to make sure my company does better than my company’s competitor because it means better job security for me… Yes, greed IS a healthy part of capitalism if it doesn’t go overboard…


If UPS folds when you're 50 you'll be scared then, too. Especially with NO prospect of going anywhere else for comparable pay and bennies. Hope the house and boat are paid for. Don't say it couldn't happen, It has happened to a few "unsinkable" airlines.

You’re absolutely correct; it would be a tragedy for me and many of my coworkers – but not for you! …and it shouldn’t be a tragedy for you because I chose to work here and not you, therefore you shouldn’t be penalized if my company fails… A National Seniority List would penalize you and many others heavily in form of delayed upgrades, lost pay and benefits, worst schedules, etc… Probably a good deal in Chavez’ world but here it probably would be considered very unfair but most…

As far as the probability of my company failing – if you’d known me in real life you’d know that I always say I’m lucky today but no one knows what the future will bring... I’m a realist and know that today it’s you and tomorrow it might be me…

However, I will never steal your hard earned money away from you the way a NSL would…


We certainly do need to make our own decisions. You decide to get car or life insurance because anything could happen. This is the same thing. I don't think the government needs to do ANYTHING for an NSL to come about, why would they need to get involved? (Not that they wouldn't get involved, but they wouldn't NEED to.)

You keep defending your idea by saying the government does not need to get involved… Again, IT DOES NOT MATTER who runs that list, it’s still a monopolistic view of looking at things and probably a good deal to some but very unfair to most… Fortunately, even with the leftist gains in Congress and Senate we are still very far away from communism in this country…


Maybe we do need our own thread... Anyway, I was gonna see what a few more experienced guys thought about this, but no one's around tonight. Yay - night shift! I enjoy the debate. Happy flying. Thanks for finding my plane. I definitely miss not living near the shore anymore. CVG's land locked.

Where did you live before? Enjoyed the discussion…