Originally Posted by Phlying Phallus

You do a fantastic job vetting management's talking points and talking yourself out of a raise. I wouldn't feel bad though, as there is a faction at every airline that does the same thing. Everyone that complains about current pay and work rules need not look any further than the closest mirror.

The fact is, should all airline pilots demand the same pay that the DAL pilots were making 9 years ago, we would all be on the same page give or take a couple of years. AA's, UAL's, CAL's contract are amendable, and DAL's is coming up soon. There would be some variations in work rules, but overall it would be a wash. With all pilots making the same rates, no airline would be "uncompetitive." That term "competitive" is a management control word, meant to lower your expectations through fear for your job and livelihood.

This line of thinking also gives a false weight to the impact of the pilots contract - as if the pilot contract alone is enough to sink an airline. Can you name an airline that was driven to insolvency because the pilots made too much money? Second, if low pilot costs are the answer, why did so many airlines like Skybus go out of business, and why is a top-paying airline like WN thriving?

Another issue to consider is how well of a job your management is doing running the operation. Let's say you accept a concessionary contract and save the airline $250 million in costs. Now the airline goes out and blows a $100MM fuel hedge contract, pays the executives $100MM in bonuses, blows a huge wad on self-inflicted "operational issues" etc.. What have you really accomplished by accepting a concessionary contract? All you have really done is subsidize a shoddy management team, and helped to minimize the damage and embarrassment of their incompetent management. This is what is going on at my airline. What good has our massive concession of 2003 done for us? NOTHING. They have only allowed a shoddy management team to stay in office YEARS longer than they should have.

When you say that the airline is losing "billions", are you sure? What do you know about accounting? If you had a corporation, and wanted to hide profits, could you show a huge "loss" with an army of accountants and actuaries at your disposal? I'll bet you could.

A couple of years ago, my airline said we were 23 billion in debt. We had pilots pulling their hair out and screaming from the rooftops that we needed massive concessions just to keep the company solvent. After several losing quarters, we were suddenly 13 billion in debt. $10 BILLION in debt vanished overnight. To this day, none of the concessionaires can explain how that happened. Yet they were SO SURE that we were doomed without the pilots "saving" the airline through concessions. (BTW, the executives enjoyed massive bonuses the whole time the airline was "sinking")

The last point I will touch on is the assuredness so many pilots have on these global business ventures that are being set up by management. How do you know that this hook-up is in your best interest? IOW, what experience and/or expertise do you have in the field of airline operations, other than gut feelings and/or emotion. You are trusting management, Flounder. Does that sound like a safe plan? Do you also trust the analysts too? Guys like Mike Boyd, that said AA's acquisition of TWA would be the "crown jewel" in our operation? You trust guys like Dick Anderson and Doug Steenland?

You should be looking at all of these proposals with a cynical eye, not an optimistic one. What has history taught you? When has management ever done you a favor? Is their long-term goals in YOUR interest, or in THEIR interest? Will they cash out to the tune of tens of millions, and leave you on a furlough list?

Face it - most of the "absolutes" on this board are just OPINION, and not based upon anything except EMOTION. It is management's job to make sure they facilitate this, and they have done a masterful job. Your OPINION and $1.89 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.