Originally Posted by
Scoop
How many flight engineers did we have back then? When I was hired we had a ton of 727's, and some L-10's.
I agree with your point about work rules causing massive job losses - they did, but totally disagree with your implication that job losses due to work rules dwarfs job losses due to outsourcing. Both have been bad for us.
I also disagree that we lost 777 jobs - since we now have more 777s and consequently more 777 pilots today.
Yes, we would have more 777 Pilots with better work rules but it is not totally correct to say we lost 777 jobs. How many less 777 pilots would we have now if we outsourced wide-body flying like UAL is attempting to do?
Job losses for any reason are bad for us as Pilots, but beyond our Pilot contract job losses through work rules are limited by FARs. The work rule caused job losses have been extensive - we agree here, but I feel they are basically behind us - I can only hope job losses due to outsourcing are also behind us.
Scoop
As Far as the 727 FE you are correct we still had them. All the bases had been closed except ATL and we had about 150 FE's in ATL. The last flight was Apr of 03. I don't believe we had any L1011's then but someone on the aircraft can add the date. I remember that most of the FE's on the 727's were ropes pushed off the L1011.
I don't understand your point on the 777's. They replaced MD11's. Jobs lost are jobs lost. If we buy 200 new narrow bodies are you saying the work rule reset themselves and we have not lost any jobs?
We have lost jobs to workrules and scope. Workrules are easy to quantify however scope is a bit more difficult to attach numbers to. The simply fact on work rules is the average Delta pilot flies 25 percent more block hours then in the past. Thats huge.
Scope we have lost a lot of domestic flying. Some of those markets are a straight trade. The jobs moved one for one from the mainline to DCI. Other markets fall into a gray area. We might have stayed in the market or if we were not cost competitive we would have to abandon the market and lost both that route and the feed it generated to larger aircraft.
Another post stated APA is the best example of great scope that we should strive for. How many pilots do they have on furlough? As I have stated many times scope is not cut and dried. There is a point where you lose jobs not gain them and the jobs lost are much higher paying then the jobs gained. I personally think the cutoff falls with the EMB170/175. They should be at the mainline. Others have different opinions. None of us really know unless we are allowed access to confidential data from the company. Only the MEC will see that data. Bucking will not be read into the program contrary to his wishes. In this we have to trust the reps.