Originally Posted by
cencal83406
I don't intend it as a flame at all. I just realize that the way some low time pilots act and the fact that "previous" low timers have been involved in some pretty spectacularly bad accidents that it would be the first thing that people jump on when something happens. Btw... Not if, when.
The way I read these arguments knocking low time guys, even the ones that don't involve ego, I interpret it as once you hit 121 flying you will (hopefully) never experience the types of experiential moments that give you the "never try that again" boundaries and the foresight to see if something is rapidly going down the tubes.
Correct me if I am wrong but that does seem to be a strong premise of the night cargo or CFI argument. Therefore, I don't think based on these that those folks would trust the 10,000 hour low timer.
Interesting wrinkle to "CFI before 121"... Wasn't the 3407 FO previously an instructor? So it could be argued that CFIing doesn't necessarily provide the reaction tools... It may well be dependent on the individual.
I didn't mean to imply that you were flaming anyone, just that this had turned into a derisive debate. For the record, I agree that sensationalism gets WAY out of hand when the media gets their teeth around any aircraft incident or accident, but a lot of it is usually misplaced or contains misinformation. You know hearing the media talk about airplane incidents drives you crazy, like how "the pilot" guided that Southwest plane to a safe landing in Yuma. I didn't realize Southwest was doing single pilot operations now. We can all appreciate the difference between CFI or GA experience and 121 experience, but I don't think that negates the lessons that can be learned in the 121 world. You may not learn anything as a result of something especially stupid or dangerous you accidentally did but you're still gaining good hard IFR skills that increase your ADM ability and make you a better pilot. Maybe your stick and rudder skills diminish if you just turn on the auto pilot on and off at 1000 agl, but my point, I suppose, is that the public doesn't recognize that difference (and maybe for good reason). Once a guy has 10,000 hours in anything, I don't think anyone would care if he only had 250 hours of CFI time a decade before because the public only cares about his ability to fly the big jet they're riding on and if he's got a big four digit number worth of time, well by golly he must know what he's doing. You can argue that maybe that's a naive viewpoint, but that's the viewpoint I think they and the media will take. Personally, I think a guy with 9,500 hours of large category jet 121 time has been through more than enough to give him some good ADM ability and I wouldn't give a second thought if he had been a low time hire years before.
Also, the 3407 FO taught in the Phoenix area, just like I did, and while you
may get a bunch of flight time it's all in severe clear. I picked up about 0.3 of actual during the year and half I was down there, so it's certainly not going to teach you how to fly in ice. Also, she wasn't the PF, so while yeah, she probably could have got on and shoved the yoke forward when the shaker went off, how many FOs would be a bit conflicted about taking the controls from the captain? Or fighting for the controls if that were the case? Yeah of course, your life is on the line too, and I'm not saying she was right to just sit there and dump the flaps, but I feel like that whole thing happened so fast that there wasn't much she could have done despite her CFI experience.
Originally Posted by
mooney
At this point in the career, do I really need to tell them to turn those 6 or more sentences into 2 by using the basic who you are, where you are, and what you want to do primary radio etiquette?
No, you absolutely shouldn't but that's example is the kind of thing that can catch even the most experienced CFI off guard. I was hired with about 1000 hours to fly a Caravan in a passenger scheduled 135 outfit, and the first time I landed at O'Hare and got "taxi to 32L at Tango 10 via right Alpha, Alpha 17, cross Bravo behind the Embraer, Mike 2, Mike, Tango, tower on Mike 120.75" I was like uhhhhhhhh, one more time, I had you up to the Embraer. The problem is when you CFI even for thousands of hours, you're usually at a slower airport, sometimes non towered, and even if it is a busy tower, you're always coming and going from the same place so your taxi instructions are always the same. I instructed at the busiest GA airport in the country, KDVT, and even then it was always "taxi to the ramp via Alpha, give way to whoever." I think taxi clearances at a big airport are the hardest thing to get your head wrapped around and it's the kind of thing you're going to have to learn on the line.