Scheduling inflexibility
 

Those of us who work at Alaska are very aware of how inflexible scheduling and adjustment to a schedule can be at Alaska. Ever since they “supposedly relaxed and opened the trade desk”, less of my trips get picked up in open time, unless they’re a day turn, which was the same before. Maybe the trade desk is making picking up less needed “although denied” seems to be the only response I get.
For the sake of discussion what could we hope for in the next contract or maybe it’s time to suck it up and quit while the hiring gives us all choices.
What are rules like at other airlines?
Had a 1.5 year Spirit FO who said he averaged 17-19 days off, 80 credits and the ability to trade until his trips were commutable, TRUE for other spirit pilots?
Same senority at Alaska would be 14-16 days off, 80 credits and no ability to get commutable trips after or during bid awards, in my observation.
Other great (sarcasm) things about Alaska, only way to drop a trip below 75 credits is to have another pilot grab it, otherwise denied.
Want to drop a 3 day for a 4 day, denied, no reserve coverage to drop the 3 day.
In other words, your going to fly 75 hours at least every month and it will be the schedule your awarded.
Reserves, you don’t want to be on reserve, be prepared to be flown up to 90 credits every bid, especially in Seattle.
Am I missing any other Alaska scheduling joy?

I have nothing constructive to add. Alaska sucks, this place is brutal.

It’s a shame the pilots were never able to negotiate a decent contract with management. How did the flight attendants manage to negotiate with them?

Legacy me arse, roll with management propaganda during arbitration.......LCC baby.

It’s flat out pathetic how bad this contract is. It’s also sad how so many Alaska pilots think the scheduling section is ok.

I’ve never met an Alaska pilot in 15 years that said they were happy with our scheduling system. No idea where the hell you're getting that assertion.

How many times have you been in contract negotiations in the last 15 years? What was so great in in those CBAs that you were willing to over look the scheduling system and vote yes (as a pilot group as a whole, not you specifically)?

"Fuk the contract & section 25, I'll just pick up open time to make up the difference."

We all know who they are......

This right here is pretty sad! 15 years and you clowns didn’t think to change it?
Oh wait, you got Crew Meals and other useless s..t... unbelievable!

It’s ridiculous blanket statements like this that keep the animosity alive between the two pilot groups. There have been plenty of AS pilots fighting for change and improvement. To refer to the whole group as clowns, spineless or weak is just stirring the pot and fueling tensions. Not to mention that it’s a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. If the you demanded excellence in all aspects of your aviation career, why did you ever go to VX in the first place? No contract, no union, sub par wages even by AS standards, out of order seniority issues, limited growth, failing business model and no profits. ******, took “you guys” 10 years to start to address any of it. So did you just “overlook” these issues the past 10 years?

That is because a measurable percentage of the pilot group eats the crap that management serves, and they LOVE it. They are more concerned at whether a pilot says Alaska on the radio and not Alaskan, rather than scope, scheduling and QOL.

VX was the picture perfect example at how money, isn't the driving factor in why people stay or leave a job. it is called HAPPINESS.

A couple of interesting reads:
https://www.thebalance.com/top-reaso...ir-job-1918985
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericjac.../#48a1c2945c45

Also, don't forget that VX pilots brought APLA on board. That airline was BUILT on the backs of the current pilot group, they aren't second rate, they aren't punks, they aren't regional scum, or any other preconceived labels some AS pilots have muttered.

AS has lots of great pilots that want to fight the good fight, but lets not forget that AS has probably achieved less than any other airline in operation today. 85 years and the current contract has so many head scratching sections. Lets not even get started on scheduling lol. VX pilots might have made less hourly, but the QOL isn't even in the same universe. We are all under one roof now, lets fight together and make some real legit changes around here.

I agree with your point of all fighting together now that we’re one company and that’s why I say divisive comments like, AS pilots are spineless, weak or clowns, doesn’t do any good. To your other point of accepting less because you were happy and thought your QOL was enough to supplement the other lacking areas of the old VX “agreement “...... That’s the exact reason we find ourselves in the current situation at AS. Enough AS pilots thought their QOL was good enough to accept less. So once again, POT, MEET KETTLE. It doesn’t matter if YOU think your QOL was good, someone else may have thought it was garbage and not nearly enough to cover up the inadequacies in other sections of the “agreement “. My point is simply that for every VX pilot that comes on and calls an As pilot weak for accepting less because they were happy, there is an AS pilot that can justifiably turn around and say the exact same thing to the VX pilot. Both groups, over the course of their existence, have been willing to overlook the terrible parts of their contracts or agreements in order to gain what they thought was QOL. Be that, geographic, days off, sustainability, profitability, commutability.... whatever made you apply in the first place. So do we sit here and call each other weak, or do we move on and fight together for something better???

Really? What percentage exactly would that be since you know so much?

You aren't missing anything. I've been here going on 4 years and our scheduling flexibility is some of the worst. I'm almost embarrassed to compare my schedules with my buddies at the "Big 3" including SWA's. Especially when it comes to block vs credit. Trip trading and trip dropping are virtually non existent. Other than day for day vacation trading, the flexibility pretty much ends there unless the trip you want to trade matches EXACTLY like the trip in open time. There are a few exceptions here and there but its definitely not the norm. Along with industry standard compensation and scope, scheduling flexibility and work rules are equally important. We'll see in two years how the next contract goes!

Every group has a few of "that guy". I would just tune out anybody who makes inflammatory blanket statements about the other group. AS ate a big poop sandwich when everybody else was going BK, and VX started an airline when other airlines were being shut down and senior dudes had no place else to go. Both AS and VX were profitable lately, so there shouldn't be much excuse to lose money after the merger dust settles.

Ah, an optimist I see

I can only hope! LOL!! :rolleyes:

What everyone here seems to conveniently forget is there is a bunch of people who will accept less for the "benefit" of living in SEA, PDX, LAX or ANC. Alaska has no problem filling classes.

Those whose priorities revolve around other than the base location are the ones voting with their feet. You'll always have to deal with that group...the ones who will accept less before moving out of Gig Harbor.

Well hopefully they can get onboard with improving scheduling and spending even more time in Gig Harbor.

You'd think that wouldn't you. A lot are afraid that Angle Lake control of PBS could actually make their lives WORSE.

I'm sure it could if it's done wrong.

KnockKnock, we could talk about why we all came to Virgin, and no Alaska pilot would get it. We had fun at our airline, and that's a concept that's as foreign as a '5-year-plan' to Alaska pilots.

So you want to start making low blows while simultaneously claiming the high ground, fine. I can play that game. Don't push me.

I've never voted for a contract here. However, the answer to your question is rather simple. The group felt that under those specific circumstances, and that specific time in history, the offer on the table, in aggregate, was as good as it was going to get. This management team DOES NOT negotiate. Sure. We can hold out, leaving millions of dollars on the table in the hopes that years down the road, we might be able to strike...an extremely remote possibility, but still not impossible. Or you take what you can when it's available. Those are the only two choices you have.

Unless and until outside forces influence management enough to overhaul our scheduling system, they won't. They WILL NOT. They don't care about any complaints, they don't care what you think, they don't care if people resign, they only care about maintaining control. As W2 wage earners under the umbrella of the RLA, there's very little that we can realistically do to alter their intractable position. A Yes vote does not mean an full throated endorsement, it just mean's "good enough for now". I've always voted no on the principle of our payrates and this fabricated "need" that we be under compensated related to other Legacy carriers. I can't get passed that.

Are you VX?

You’re missing the point. Many of your fellow VX pilots are slinging a lot of mud and calling AS pilots, among other things, “spineless, weak, clowns, yes men, etc. Many VX pilots are chastising the AS pilot group for accepting less in order to remain at Alaska. This is hypocritical because every VX pilot has done just that. You accepted less pay, less retirement, no scop, no contract and rolled the dice on a start up airline that lost money, in order to be at VX. This isn’t something I made up to make you mad, these are just facts. IDK what brought you to VX or why you chose to stay but something did and that goes for every AS pilot. You say you accepted less because you were having fun at work and another poster says he accepted less because of his QOL. Personally, I don’t care but maybe that’s why those AS pilots who’ve voted yes felt the same way. Maybe they thought their QOL was good or the were having fun at work. I haven’t been here long enough to get a vote on a contract yet but this “my airline is better than your airline “ nonsense does nothing to improve either of our situations. None of this is intended to make you angry, it’s just to point out the hypocrisy of either group trying to call the other out for not “standing up for themselves “.

The Delta pilot group collectively refused a contract in the summer of 2015.

The company told us, there was NOTHING left. We could just move the pieces but our size of the pie wouldn’t change. Even the union told us the refusal would be a huge mistake because of the time value of money. No company wants to negotiate.

In the end, we did very well (not perfect) sending the contract back. That is exactly what you guys need to do in the next cycle. With the arbitration, you had very little leverage. I hope adding Virgin to the mix will tip the scales for the next go.

The interesting thing for us was that the demographic of the senior pilots seems to be changing. Rather then the senior guys selling out the junior folks, which had been the case when they were junior....they still voted no to leave the place better then they found it. If that happens for you folks, you will be set. I guess it’s a function of the greed of your senior guys.

Totally agree with all of this. Now that we have our payrates in the neighborhood of reasonable, maybe more of us are willing to bite the bullet and stand firm in 2020. We'll see.

Not real hard to fill classes when you hire around 10 a month (or whatever the small number is).

While I wouldn't call AS guys weak, spineless, clowns, there is an acknowledgement even on the AS side, that management have gotten the better of the pilot group over the years and consequently there is this "shell shocked" reluctance to put up any more resistance as there is this belief that no matter what, management always finds a way to get around you.. It seems like or at least I am hopeful that this time will be different and collectively we will be able to make meaningful gains in the upcoming contract negotiations.

As far as your criticism of VX pilots go, I would like you to consider these points:
Pilots came to the VX startup in '06, '07, '08, etc for many different reasons. If you recall, airlines were folding and pilots were being furloughed. NOBODY was hiring EXCEPT VX, so some came for that reason. Others came for the rapid command upgrade, among other reasons.

One thing I am sure of however, is that the overwhelming majority of the pilots hired at VX were/are not bottom of the barrel guys and in fact quite a few have been hired or went back to the majors when they were recalled. In essence the safety and quality of VX's operation was excellent and among other things, it was due to cadre of pilots onboard who handled themselves quite professionally.

As for you wondering why we came for less pay, less retirement, no contract, etc., you may be enlightened by looking back historically at other airlines. MANY airlines, at their startup, e.g. Southwest, FedEx, Spirit, did not offer industry standard compensation - no, management is never going to make it that easy.

VX management made us promises that we would share in the airline's success down the road and to offset the lower initial pay, they made the effort to ensure that our Schedules and QOL were pretty good. We weren't happy with everything, but for the most part we took them at their word UNTIL it started to become clear that management was not holding up their end of the bargain.

There were guys who were skeptical about Management from day 1 and trust me, we had many debates online, in the bar and in our homes about the many broken promises and how to address the situation. We had one union drive fairly early on that failed and then finally we prevailed on the second try and voted ALPA onto the property. We were then in the process of starting negotiations with the company as a unionized group when AS bought us.

It took us 10 years, and from what I have read somewhere, it takes about that long for an airline to go from non-unionized to unionized. So I'd humbly like to clarify for those who don't know VXs history, that we were NEVER content with our package and we voiced our displeasure from day 1 and in some respects that worked. We pressured them to do more and they were very strategic in giving us just enough each time to quell the group for a while until it came to critical mass and we decided to take steps to unionize.

So no, we were not content to accept low wages because we were happy with our QOL, rather, the very good QOL along with the promises of better pay, profit sharing etc, made us willing to give management time to make good on them. ONCE IT BECAME CLEAR THAT THEY WERE NOT FORTH COMING, IT WAS ON!

I guess, VX pilots are really just shocked at how bad Alaska's pilot contract is as an 83 year old Legacy Carrier. There are QOL provisions in some Regional Carriers that are better than AS's(ours)!

Now for those folks who keep on harping that Virgin pilots should be glad because we won the "lottery", I'll say this.. My W2 was 260k last year averaging 15 - 18 days off with an excellent QOL. Some made less obviously, but there are quite a few guys who made more. I want to have the CHOICE to work hard or not and not be restricted by the powers that be.

I want to be able to build/customize my own schedule in one shot. Not have someone build a bunch of lines and then say: "Here choose one!" Even the number 1 guy under Line bidding can get the Days Off he wants, or the Trips he wants, but not both. He can't get days off on Tues to Thursday in one week and then the Weekend off the next. And most pilots under Line Bidding have to be fiddling with their schedule for a good part of the month, trying to get it right. And what good is trip touching, if you still have to make up back to 75 hours as opposed to being "Pay Protected" as it should be?

So again, no VX pilots did not win the lottery. I may make 300k this year, but what good is that if my schedule goes down the drain, I am unable to spend quality time with my family and I hate my job?

A better pay rate is only half of what it takes to be happy in a pilot's job.

I guess you could always quit. Its not indentured servitude after all.

Great attitude, buddy.

This is a fantastic summation of how lot of us on the VX side feel. Well done.

I understand in this moment of change and possibly great upheaval to our lives these issues might elicit emotional rather than logical responses but I assure you my friend, I am not your enemy.

I never said being at Alaska is comparable to indentured service and I acknowledge that we did get some good things with the Alaska acquisition.

I plan on staying because I am quite senior and would never be able to catch up financially were I to start over. If I was younger and not as senior however, I absolutely would be looking to go elsewhere, something that some of our guys are actively considering.

I made reference to $300k and a bad QOL vs $240k and an excellent QOL to make the point that contrary to what some AS pilots think, some of us do not think that we won the lottery. We know that legacy AS pilots have not been happy with this place and it is primarily because of QOL issues - that's no secret.

So all I'm saying is that many VX pilots are ambivalent about our average 30% pay increase windfall because it appears that it will come at too steep a price by way of a significant QOL degradation.

I got a 30-40% pay raise but I’m the most unhappy I’ve ever been in my career.

#iamalaska

Biz, before this goes any further, understand I have not once said any VX pilot is "bottom of the barrel, regional scum, punks" or any of the other names that are being thrown around on here. I'm also not criticizing VX pilots. If you go back and read this thread from page one, I'm responding to the few posters that resort to calling the AS pilots clowns, spineless and weak. I think that it's quite hypocritical to throw around garbage like that when, no matter how you slice it, you and all other VX pilots accepted less in a number of areas, in order to work there. One poster said he accepted less because his QOL was "in another Universe" another poster said he accepted less because he was having fun at work and now you're saying you accepted less because there was a promise of more later. Now please understand, I'm not judging you or any others for your decisions. This has nothing to do with thinking any less of you or VX in general. My point is solely that you disqualify yourself from telling anyone else they are weak or spineless for accepting less when you yourself have accepted less. Neither pilot group has the moral high ground in this whole thing. Both groups have overlooked sub par language in order to maintain their perceived QOL or whatever other motivating factors drove them to do so. With that said, neither group can rightfully say the other is weak or spineless. So as I said earlier in this thread, do we continue to call each other weak or do we fight for better, TOGETHER???

You keep talking about that we were flying for "less," but that depends on what you define as "more."

Our quality of life was great. No shows before 7am. 16-18 days off per month; even the lowest line holder could expect that. By and large, front line employees would go the extra mile for each other and the guests. We laughed together, we partied together. We built an airline from nothing. The future was undiscovered- and that was exciting.

So you keep talking about less, but it didn't feel that way at all. The airline was on the upswing and we were growing, right up until the majority-stake investors sold all of us out. (Not Branson)

If anyone is calling AS pilots weak, it's because there's this vibe of resignation around the whole airline. The union MEC has a revolving door with management. Oh well. Management has been eroding quality of life for the last 5 years. What can you do? It's disturbing. It's not that we're trying to name call- we want to wake you guys up and help you realize that our combined futures, left unchanged, look bleak as hell. And we want to change it. Help us.

What I don’t get is why so many seem to be gleeful at the downgrade in QOL that is coming for Airbus crews. How about we all work together to UPGRADE Boeing crews QOL instead.

Reading your reply makes me cringe. Because I really hope not all AS pilots feel this way. I think it's this mentality that upsets most VX pilots. And its this mentality that has let management "win" for the last 15 years. That "there is nothing better", " This is the best we can get.","there is nothing we can do about it", "we have no leverage". If that is what you truly believe, then you are destined to get a sub par contract. And I agree with you 100% about them wanting to maintain control. I saw it when Tk and BM sent out the letter about orange lanyards. And to my surprise, the pilots stopped wearing them. That was pathetic.

At my last airline we were in negotiations for a very long time. And the company came at us with a "last, final, best offer" Our union told them to shove it. In the end we ended up with a very nice contract. The work rules were far better at my previous airline in the new contract than here at VX or AS.

I'm ready to embrace the suck for years during contract 2020 because in the long run, it'll pay off. But it wont come easy. And as much as Ben and Brad want to tell us they cant afford to pay us, they can.

Sorry for the misunderstanding KnockKnock but I was not attributing the
"bottom of the barrel, regional scum, punks" comments specifically to you.

As for the "Pot Calling the Kettle Black Argument", if you ignore history, then it is quite easy to knock the VX group for going to a start up and accepting sub-par wage. If we are honest with ourselves though, (again it is extremely important to examine where the cream of the crop in compensation like FedEx and Southwest are now vs where they were at their own very beginning) we will realize that the management of any start-up airline will never pay industry standard at the outset and invariably the pilots will have to fight to get it up to/close to where it needs to be.

So okay, to your point, both groups settled or accepted less than what was desirable but the BIG difference I see, and this was so well said in one of the posts above this one, is that while our AS brothers collectively seem to have given up the fight and are resigned to defeat in dealing with their management, the VX pilots (again, collectively) were energized and ready to sacrifice if needs be, in order to exact from the then VX management what we were convinced was long overdue. (the economic climate was certainly in our favor).

I am certain that the VX side still has that energy (even more so now) and I am sure that there are guys on the AS side that also still have that energy. I am hoping that the synergy from the combined group will allow us to rally each other to storm and breach what seems like an impenetrable fortress and avail ourselves of the spoils that we truly deserve. (I'm feeling like a Barbarian right now :)