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Alaska or Jetblue?
If I am fortunate enough to have this choice, which one has better prospects (long term). Im a west coast guy, so JB LGB would be nice, where as ALK obviously a west coast operator.
What do you all think? Both airlines seem to be great places! Obviously, I have done my research, but until you are there, you don't know how it truly is. Thanks HappyD |
JetBlue.
Better contract, better reserve rules, better ltd, better vacation, better schedules, better qol. They are growing. Have a ton of orders, aren’t looking at loosing over a third of their mainline fleet, oh and don’t have a massive squadron of regional aircraft. They have scope. It goes on and on. |
Yes, definitely JetBlue.
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Isn’t LGB senior, and scaling down?
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Thx guys for the quick responses!
HappyD |
You're a West coast guy. JetBlue's LGB is small and senior. A transcon commute isn't worth a better contract. And I have a bridge to sell the pilot who says Alaska's going to downsize (or in his words "loosing") its mainline fleet by 1/3.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk |
If you want to be on the west coast then Alaska is the obvious choice for me. If you don’t mind moving to the east coast then I feel like JetBlue would be a fine choice.
Alaska grows very very slowly and doesn’t have many retirements in the pipeline, and we outsource a ton of our “growth” to Skywest and Horizon... however if you want to be west coast it’s a fine place to work for now. If you’re young I would just keep the apps updated at the big 3. |
JB LGB base is small, very senior, and not necessarily guaranteed to be around forever.
I would not do JB unless willing to move east. A career transcon commute is a special kind of hell. JB probably provides a better opportunity, if you don't care where you live. But if you consider all possible merger matchups, B6 and AS would make a decent match so you might be able to have your cake and eat it too eventually. |
Now you’ve done it! I can hear the flock of boo birds feverishly flapping their wings, swooping to this thread. Remember, everything you hear here is amplified for both the pro and con arguments. Any commute, no matter how short, is added stress and I would avoid it. If you live in or are willing to move to any of the bases of your potential employer, go there. Differences in contracts can be learned and worked around. Alaska is in the opening process of section 6 CBA negotiations, it’s about to get ugly if previous management foot dragging is any indicator. Keep that in mind.
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Originally Posted by KnockKnock
(Post 2836706)
Differences in contracts can be learned and worked around. Alaska is in the opening process of section 6 CBA negotiations, it’s about to get ugly if previous management foot dragging is any indicator. Keep that in mind.
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If staying on the west coast is your priority, then Delta should be your first choice. SEA and LAX bases. If that’s not an option then unfortunately Alaska is your choice. If career advancement, QOL scheduling, good contract, growth, Pay, retirement then Delta again should be your first choice. If not, then Jet Blue is your choice. If you come to Alaska you can expect a LONG upgrade time, a seriously substandard Reserve schedule, a management group that thinks growth is more RJs at other airlines, a seriously substandard QOL compared to ALL the other major airlines.
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Originally Posted by NotTellin
(Post 2836753)
If you come to Alaska you can expect a LONG upgrade time, a seriously substandard Reserve schedule, a management group that thinks growth is more RJs at other airlines, a seriously substandard QOL compared to ALL the other major airlines.
Former poster is right. If you want to stay on the West Coast...Delta. |
Originally Posted by noodle
(Post 2836743)
Learned, yes. Worked around??? Idk, we shouldn't have to. This contract is pretty horrible. Scheduling especially. Those work arounds are debatable and painful.
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1.Pick which legacy you want to work for.
2. Look into your crystal ball and see whether B6 or AS will be bought by that legacy at the next economic downturn. 3. Go to that one and suck it up for a while. 4. If you don’t care which legacy then base your decision on which imperfect choice you can most easily live with for the next ten years. Tough call... (Planning for more than 10 years at AS or B6 is to ignore long term industry trends) |
Jetblue for sure.
Alaskan is far from a "great place" to work. This is a toxic stagnant place, truly awful. Not that it matters, the future will likely bring a combined Alaska Blue a Virgin airline. Go to whichever you think will win the seniority integration. |
I don't care how much better JB's work rules are compared to AS, it is not different enough to offset the pain and expense of a trans-con commute. The LGB base for JB is small, senior and shrinking, the LAX/SNA is base is super junior, and flies both the both the 737 and Bus, making it easy for anyone who wants it to get it.
Upgrade time - it will be awhile for anyone getting hired right now no doubt. Dont even think about upgrade it is such wild speculation tha you should just presume that you will be an FO UFN. If you are happy with the FO pay scale compared to where you are now then you should go to Alaska. Work rules - at Alaska and JB both need work. no doubt. The problem with work rules is that they will change over your career at any airline and what is a good work rule for one pilot is crap for another. PBS or Hard line bidding; hotels at the airport or downtown; RAP's throughout month or bid for daily; make as much money as you want or upgrade faster with a strict monthly maximum. I think the choice between JB and AS for you seems obvious. And if you get the chance to go to Delta or AA or United then you absolutely make the jump. Good luck |
Originally Posted by Happydayz
(Post 2836622)
If I am fortunate enough to have this choice, which one has better prospects (long term). Im a west coast guy, so JB LGB would be nice, where as ALK obviously a west coast operator.
What do you all think? Both airlines seem to be great places! Obviously, I have done my research, but until you are there, you don't know how it truly is. Thanks HappyD If you're a west coast guy, there is no comparison between B6 and AS. Take AS without a doubt. A B6 transcon commute to JFK or BOS would get real old real fast. And jetBlue's contract isn't worth a transcon commute over Alaska's. |
Originally Posted by Ala5ka
(Post 2836841)
Jetblue for sure.
Alaskan is far from a "great place" to work. This is a toxic stagnant place, truly awful. Not that it matters, the future will likely bring a combined Alaska Blue a Virgin airline. Go to whichever you think will win the seniority integration. |
Jetblue, not even a choice, unless you want to be a career fo on the 737.
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Live in base fly a 737, or transcon commute to an A320 :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by Happydayz
(Post 2836622)
If I am fortunate enough to have this choice, which one has better prospects (long term). Im a west coast guy, so JB LGB would be nice, where as ALK obviously a west coast operator.
What do you all think? Both airlines seem to be great places! Obviously, I have done my research, but until you are there, you don't know how it truly is. Thanks HappyD |
Originally Posted by Reactivity
(Post 2837026)
Do whatever you want, but don't come back here and whine about it later.
Because we’re in negotiations, there’s a pretty solid contract comparison book that one of your Alaska friends can snag you a copy of. I’d get a copy, comb over it’s comparison to JB, look at their A/C orders, and expansion/hiring plans vs ours, and then roll the dice. Best of luck to you. 👍🏼 |
Dude, don’t muddy the water with facts!!!
These people all need to believe they made the right decision. |
Thx everyone for your insightful comments.
Upgrade times at AS? I am assuming LAX/SNA. Reserve times for new hires? HD |
Originally Posted by cmrflyer
(Post 2837043)
Dude, don’t muddy the water with facts!!!
These people all need to believe they made the right decision. For the OP, go ask this same question over on the JB boards, you’ll get the same 50/50 responses. There’s dog****** hidden in every contract. I too have a buddy at JB asking about AS because he wants to come west. As av8or said, look at a contract comparison and decide if it’s worth the commute. Upgrades were running at 4 yrs 11 months, but now that the base bidding is open to all you can probably add a couple of yrs to that. We’re apparently hiring for the rest of the year but unless something changes, it just for attrition with no measurable growth. But as you know, things change rapidly in this industry so who knows what will happen in the next year. Good luck. |
Originally Posted by Happydayz
(Post 2837083)
Thx everyone for your insightful comments.
Upgrade times at AS? I am assuming LAX/SNA. Reserve times for new hires? HD I expect all new hires will go bus. |
Originally Posted by KnockKnock
(Post 2836776)
Just like PBS vs. line bidding, without going into which is “better”, if you don’t bother to learn the system and figure out how to work with either one, both will burn your QOL.
Agreed, any system can burn you if you don't bother to learn it, whether or not it has/hasn't been demonstrated to be clearly superior to another/others.... All things being equal tho, (and that's the key.... you have to normalize the comparison, where the contract languages are roughly the same), PBS offers much, much, more flexibility and predictability, in many more controlling aspects of one's schedule and QOL right from the outset, and for much deeper down the seniority list. On an extreme, I think if most pilots HAD to choose between the flexibility of getting their desired dates for DAYS OFF vs getting their DESIRED TRIPS, the ability to select DAYS OFF would probably win hands down. In real life that's one big benefit of PBS that extends even to the most junior Line Holders and on top of that they might be able to snag a few DESIRED TRIPS. With Line Bidding however, even the most senior Line Holders will be hard pressed to find a line that gives them ALL the desired DAYS OFF dates for the month AND the TRIPS they desire. Having lived through these past few months of AS line bidding, I feel like a mad scientist with each monthly bidding event... opening this valve here with my left hand, capping that line there with my right foot, pressing this button with my chin, all while plugging that hole with my right thumb in a vain attempt at wrangling a somewhat decent schedule/QOL out of this system of sorting Lines, then Step 1 and Step 2, etc......and the work arounds!!!.... It's insane I tell you!! lol And I get your point; many of us don't take the time to digest the information available, but OTOH, we do have many pilots here, not just coming from the VX side mind you, who have experienced and have bothered to learn the ways of both systems and are not just speaking in hypotheticals. |
Originally Posted by All Bizniz
(Post 2837137)
Having lived through these past few months of AS line bidding, I feel like a mad scientist with each monthly bidding event... opening this valve here with my left hand, capping that line there with my right foot, pressing this button with my chin, all while plugging that hole with my right thumb in a vain attempt at wrangling a somewhat decent schedule/QOL out of this system of sorting Lines, then Step 1and Step 2, etc......and the work arounds!!!.... It's insane I tell you!! lol I've flown with senior pilots who are dedicated to hard lines. In the course of a 3 day trip I bet they spent 4+ hours going through the bid packets. That's a lot of work - every month. And first and second step is largely useless if you are junior. I've been successful in only one trip trade in ten attempts. I've lived under both hard lines and PBS and I am ambivalent with a few exceptions. People need to understand that PBS is a generic description and that the devil's in the details - and there's A LOT of details. PBS won't make things better without the Union controlling it. I think a lot of the resistance against PBS from hard line bidding advocates is that they don't trust Angle Lake. Vacation language would have to change too. I believe that a PBS system with good rules would benefit Alaska pilots. But would we get that? Maybe, maybe not. Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by All Bizniz
(Post 2837137)
I see what you did... lol
Agreed, any system can burn you if you don't bother to learn it, whether or not it has/hasn't been demonstrated to be clearly superior to another/others.... All things being equal tho, (and that's the key.... you have to normalize the comparison, where the contract languages are roughly the same), PBS offers much, much, more flexibility and predictability, in many more controlling aspects of one's schedule and QOL right from the outset, and for much deeper down the seniority list. On an extreme, I think if most pilots HAD to choose between the flexibility of getting their desired dates for DAYS OFF vs getting their DESIRED TRIPS, the ability to select DAYS OFF would probably win hands down. In real life that's one big benefit of PBS that extends even to the most junior Line Holders and on top of that they might be able to snag a few DESIRED TRIPS. With Line Bidding however, even the most senior Line Holders will be hard pressed to find a line that gives them ALL the desired desired DAYS OFF dates for the month AND the TRIPS they desire. Having lived through these past few months of AS line bidding, I feel like a mad scientist with each monthly bidding event... opening this valve here with my left hand, capping that line there with my right foot, pressing this button with my chin, all while plugging that hole with my right thumb in a vain attempt at wrangling a somewhat decent schedule/QOL out of this system of sorting Lines, then Step 1 and Step 2, etc......and the work arounds!!!.... It's insane I tell you!! lol And I get your point; many of us don't take the time to digest the information available, but OTOH, we do have many pilots here, not just coming from the VX side mind you, who have experienced and have bothered to learn the ways of both systems and are not just speaking in hypotheticals. |
Yes, I thought about that and agree. If you live on the West coast, as bad as the scheduling is, it's better than commuting to the East coast to fly for JB..... and I'm a fan of JB...
That's 30 - 40 more extra hours a month (unpaid) in a pressurized can and losing 4 or more days of your own DAYS OFF. Your body and your family don't need that... |
Originally Posted by coolyokeluke
(Post 2837147)
I think a lot of the resistance against PBS from hard line bidding advocates is that they don't trust Angle Lake.
It's like "Hey I know the food is great but I don't trust the chef, so I'm not gonna eat it, even though I'm starving over here" ...... I totally see their point of view...... but..... WE ARE starving! lol |
If you’re going to move east. Take JB.
If you’re going to stay west coast AK. Having done a transcon commute i do not recommend it given a choice. Stay local. Move to a base. Simplify your life. Good luck |
Originally Posted by All Bizniz
(Post 2837150)
Yes, I thought about that and agree. If you live on the West coast, as bad as the scheduling is, it's better than commuting to the East coast to fly for JB..... and I'm a fan of JB...
That's 30 - 40 more extra hours a month (unpaid) in a pressurized can and losing 4 or more days of your own DAYS OFF. Your body and your family don't need that... |
Commuting bites and it'll take years off your life in the long run. I'd go with AS for west coast and B6 for east coast. These two are not your top tier career airlines by any stretch but they are a step up from the the regionals, at least in pay and 401K. Definitely good places for touch 'n go with complimentary type ratings.:)
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A transcon commute long term adds at least 10 yrs age-ing over your actual age. Sully had been doing his commute for 15 years and look at him when the accident happened at 58. He easily looked 68-70.
And a reserve transcon commute, forget it. Even though I was POed at NY closing, the reasons above were enough to pull the trigger to pack up and move west coast in base. Though to be fair not everyone is in a position to do that due to wife’s job, kids school, taking care of elder parents, having a family network nearby, etc. But we were forced to move or commute. If you’re starting your career you haven’t been forced anything. Take the company that keeps you where you are. As a west coast guy, Alaska is the choice over jetblue. |
Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand
(Post 2837164)
If you’re going to move east. Take JB.
If you’re going to stay west coast AK. Having done a transcon commute i do not recommend it given a choice. Stay local. Move to a base. Simplify your life. Good luck |
JetBlue is an east coast airline and living out west you will sacrifice huge amounts of QOL and $$$.
Go to Alaska, and if it sucks there then try to work your way into Delta/United/AA/SWA which all have significant west coast operations. |
Originally Posted by coolyokeluke
(Post 2837147)
. People need to understand that PBS is a generic description and that the devil's in the details - and there's A LOT of details. PBS won't make things better without the Union controlling it. I think a lot of the resistance against PBS from hard line bidding advocates is that they don't trust Angle Lake.
The Alaska MEC controlling PBS. Now THAT'S funny. |
Originally Posted by Packrat
(Post 2837621)
The Anglers will never, repeat, NEVER allow the Union to control PBS. Don't believe me? Volunteer for the Scheduling Committee and see just how much input the Union has to the hard lines.
The Alaska MEC controlling PBS. Now THAT'S funny. Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by coolyokeluke
(Post 2837626)
Perhaps. I flew with the scheduling chairman. While he was far from sunshine and rainbows neither did he share your certitude regarding this.
Come back AFTER PBS is in your contract and let's see who's got control of the algorithm. |
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