Alaska or UPS?
 

Alaska or UPS? What would you choose and why? Pilot lives in SoCal. Assume both FJOs. Asking for a friend.

When you say CJO at UPS, are you talking a pool letter or a CJO with a tentative class date?

Assume both FJOs. (I edited it).

:rolleyes:
Really?

Why are you surprised? :D

Would you rather eat a Quarter Pounder with Cheese from McDonald's or a five course meal in a Michelin 3-Star restaurant? That's basically what you just asked. Alaska in its current state is the crappy cheeseburger - there are worse things to eat, but eating them for 30 years is going to definitely take a toll on your health.

Yes, I’m surprised your friend is struggling with this decision. UPS vs Alaska, what is there to even think about?

Alaska or UPS?
 

No skin in the game as I don't work at either carrier, but I find these 'vs' threads incredibly annoying. All they ever instigate is biased diatribe. I guess I don't understand why supposed "adults" and "professionals" need to be hand held into making career decisions in what is best for them and their family. The information about pretty much any carrier is easily accessible on this very site. Do your own research and form your own conclusion. /rant

Yep.......

PIA-RFD. RFD-SDF. Sit the 3.5 hr sort in the middle of the night. SDF-BHM.

That’s a five course meal in a Michelin 3-star restaurants? :rolleyes:
If you’re gonna talk about toll on the health, then be realistic about cargo flying.

ALK is the West Virginia of the airline world. Backward AF at the senior levels, inbred and patting each other on the back agreeing that ALK can do no wrong. Their stated goal is to be just a little better than SWA.

That's fair. I thought it was possible to do mostly daytime flying there but maybe I'm thinking of FedEx. Either way though, the stress of having to fight with the CONSTANT bull**** with respect to the schedules here and the INSANE amount of free time that we have to waste on step trading, line bidding, fixing illegalities, etc etc is no picnic either.

Well I mean my buddy is on first year pay at UPS and he fortunately saved up for that adventure.

Then again when he hits 2nd year it will be far greater than the 12 year FO scale at AS.

So pay wise it’s pretty clear by about month 4 of 2nd year you’re caught up to an AS FO. Not looking back after that either.

The UPS crews are at our ONT overnight hotel. They look about as wrung out and tired as AS crews coming off of our WOCL trips.

Which are 1/3 of our flying out of SEA....


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Look through the bid packets if you can get a hold of any at both carriers. Never heard of anyone leaving UPS for Alaska. Compare contracts and you’ll find the decision likely to come easy.

At AK you will probably block high 800s year and 1/3 of the flying is window of circadian low. Trip trading is made very difficult so it’s easy to miss important family events in my opinion. Good luck

Not to split hair but there was a guy maybe a yr, yr 1/2 ago that did come from UPS. Don’t know his story but in the picture of new hires, it said where everyone came from. Also, when you say 1/3 of the flying we do is WOCL, are you referring to company wide or as individuals? In your first year or so, yeah plan on flying a couple of red eyes a month depending on your “RAP” but after that they’re pretty easy to avoid. At 4 yrs in, I haven’t flown one in well over a year and that was only because it fit my scheduling needs.

Sure thing I hadn’t heard of one personally.

If you review the union line bid summary each month it lists the percentage of flying during WOCL hours, normally accounts for 1/3 of all block hours. Some bases are slightly more/less. Seniority will obviously determine if you fly those.

It’s amazing how fast people become accustomed to 50% or greater seniority in base.

Nearly every one of my trips has a segment in the WOCL. If I bid for certain days off it just gets worse.

At 4 years in you have experienced the most rapid seniority movement in the last 20 years at AS. A crew grabbed an airplane from us and cringed when we told them we wouldn’t get any BBQ in town because our van was at 4:30am. 2:30am Seattle time... The FO had probably missed that trip mix altogether because of pure, dumb luck.


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What’s your point? Are you going to bid all nighters when your seniority allows you to avoid them so you can continue to be “one with the new hires”? I speak from my personal experience here, you speak from yours. There is no black and white. My point is that, YES, as a new employee, a yr to maybe 2 now, you can plan on flying your share of red eyes. I did it, you’re doing it, any new hire can expect it. After that, you can avoid them if you want to. I don’t know too much about UPS but can you avoid flying all night within a couple years of being there? I have a buddy there that’s pretty jr. he seems to like it and hasn’t said too much about the WOCL flying. If the OP wants to fly international widebody stuff, UPS seems like a great route to take. I also know a guy that chose to stay at AS instead of going to his class at FedEx because he didn’t want to fly all night for a large chunk of his career. He too is pretty happy with his lot in life. Everybody lives their own lives my friend.

A couple in SFO as well left for VA. Mainly due to commuting and schedules. I think it can be rough on the body over time. Throw in a commute and that makes it worse.

His point is that not everyone gets to avoid red-eyes after their first year or so. There's guys here for close to a year who can't even hold a line yet. Also, if you want to upgrade you'll have at least 3-4 years of reserve before you're lucky enough to fly a line with red-eyes. Alaska is growing at 1-2% a year and maybe someday we'll have an industry standard contract so why would anyone want to go anywhere else?

So there are F.O.’s that are 2+ years on the list and they can’t avoid all nighters? Not long ago, guys used to spend years and years on reserve before they could hold a line. If it’s down to under a year, I’d say that’s trending for the better. It was a solid year n 1/2 before I could hold consistent lines.

Can you avoid night flying after 2 years at UPS? I don’t know but I’m told no and you can expect it for the majority of your career there. You won’t spend the majority of your career at AS flying WOCL unless you want to. Is that a reason to choose AS over UPS? Depends on the person and how they want to live their life.

These Vs. threads are pretty useless because there’s no way to know where someone will spend a happier career. Someone may enjoy day trips at Allegiant more than 7-14 days on the road at UPS/Fed Ex. There’s a lid for every pot.

My point is that different pilot groups have different priorities.

For example my buddy was hired at SWA the same month I was hired at AS.

He did about two weeks on reserve before being assigned a line.

Reserve goes senior at airlines with proper staffing.

At AS **** goes downhill and it’s a good thing to keep in mind when considering employers. Doubly so for a PAX airline which has 1/3 of its flying in the WOCL, poor staffing and considerably poorer work rules compared to our peers. This is critical if the “music stops” and one is stuck at the bottom for years. Which is the current captain seniority level I’m flying with now: guys who were on reserve at AS for 4-6 years as an FO.

Last I checked that is what this thread was about... comparing employment opportunities. I’m not even trying to make a point. I’m just painting with facts.


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I’m asking what’s your point in saying, “it’s amazing how fast people become accustomed to 50% or better seniority in base”? Of course one gets accustomed to their stage in life. When I was on rsv, that’s what I knew and that’s what I was accustomed to. It didn’t last forever. Circumstances change. Yours will too and you will grow accustomed to your new circumstances. I’m not forgetting what it was like at that stage at AS, I’m saying it doesn’t paint a complete picture to suggest it will always be that way.

I’m pretty confident the OP understands how seniority works at this point.

Oh I see. You don’t like my opinion, so you’re asking the rhetorical question: “what’s your point?”

This reminds me so much of a 4 day with a socially awkward captain it makes my skin crawl.


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Ok, deflect. If that’s your go to defense mechanism, fine. I didn’t realize your cage was so easily rattled.

I’m asking you “what’s your point”, or maybe better put, why, does my reflection of 4 yr life at AS mean that I’ve somehow forgotten what it’s like to be new or junior? And why is my observation of my segment of the seniority list any less valid than yours? If you think that’s rhetorical, that stems from others not caring about your opinion, not me.

I simply said that after a year to two, red eyes are avoidable. That’s probably not the case at UPS. Does this upset you?

After 1.5-2 years, SDF-based pilots on the Bus or 757 can frequently hold majority day flying. Those lines generally are not super commuter-friendly, though some trips have commercial deadheads.

You could also bid international; no idea how ONT schedules at that longevity look.

UPS is currently hiring for growth airframes, as well as retiring at least double what mandatory retirements are.

Express freight isn’t for everybody, but even within a given fleet/seat/domicile there is significant diversity in trips/schedules so most can find something that suits their physical and QOL needs.

UPS is very similar to FedEx. We do night, day and international. We do have red eyes, not that many though; the bulk of our night flying (“nite sort”) is: leave the hotel at 9pm, fly a leg into SDF, sleep til 2 or 3 in a private sleep room, fly leg back out, hotel by 6am. Repeat M-F nights. Start that with a paid ticket* to work on Sunday and another one home in the following Saturday. Week on/week off like this. These can go fairly senior but people either love them or hate them. Better than red eyes IMHO. Lots of day flying but it’s usually tied into shorter pairings and annoying for commuters - increasing due to rise in e-commerce volume. Reserve has been known to be a good deal with not getting called out much but we are short staffed and will continue to be so for a while so it’s not epic as it was - still gets bid on across the seniority board though. Generally speaking, schedules will own you 14/28 days mostly in longer blocks (7/7, 14/14, etc.) but it’s not uncommon to gain a day or two at home with favorable commercial deadheads, conflict bidding, etc.
*not all pairing have these Dh’s.

International is either loops around continents, stings around the world (MD/747) or inter Europe / inter Asia flying (767) doing the night sort stuff I explained above. Not unheard of but not exactly common either to do Europe or Asia out and backs. Intl is something like 40-50% of our flying. Downside is there are lots of 24hr l/o’s in these pairings.

Basically we average block 400+change hrs per year and credit 975ish. I think my low was 300 and I have a bud that stayed under 200 for a couple of years doing airport standby lines (dozing for dollars). But the schedules are tougher than the pax carriers, generally with trips starting at 2-3am. No big deal, shift your clock (be an early riser on your days off) and make rest / a healthy lifestyle a priority and it has minimal effects. We also have top notch vacation language which helps.

I normally see 1-2 AK guys jumping over each year. Same with jet blue. Sometimes a SWA guy. Best bet is just to grab a JS on us sometime and check out the op, talk to the guys. Lots of info on the UPS section here too. But don’t be put off by the night flying thing, it’s not as bad as it sounds. But don’t expect bankers hours either.

This is a great question because it reflects my actual experience.

In 1990 when I was getting out of the Navy, UPS was just spooling up. You didn't even need to go to Louisville for an interview because they were setting up recruiters in hotel rooms near the major military facilities.

I interviewed at Alaska and got the CJO. When I got home I was supposed to go over and see the UPS recruiter. However, at the time, senior AS Captains were at $154 an hour and UPS on every fleet paid $111 an hour. I didn't even go see the recruiter and took the AS job.

20 years later I was making $200 an hour and as a widebody UPS Captain I would have been making 1/3rd more. Going to AS over UPS was the biggest career mistake I ever made. I don't even want to think about how much money it cost me.

Redeyes? You'll have your fill at both operations, but after having flown widebody aircraft you don't want to be stuck on the 737 West Coast's most popular regional airline for your career. International is the way to go.

Choose wisely.

Hindsight is always 20/20. You’ll never know until you retire about the what if’s.

The schedule I quoted was the accident crew’s of UPS 1354. Reading the CVR transcript on that flight tells you all you need to know about the back side of the clock flying. To each his own, but no way would I want a career at a cargo carrier.

Your assuming you would have been hired at UPS.
Ya never will know.

So you think their 2-3 nap time between flights afforded them less sleep than and legacy airline transcon 6 hour red eye?

There’s a large difference in reporting for a 5.5-6hr red eye, many of which leave between 830-1030pm and land by 5-7am east coast time. You have the entire day to prep for it. Versus doing PIA-RFD-BHM and then try a half ass sleep attempt for 2 hrs on a 3.5 hr sit, before flying to BHM. If I had to choose, I’d take that one continuous flight. In west coast time, you takeoff 8-30-1030pm and land 2-4am (PST) and hit the bed in the hotel. You’re headed for the hotel at the same time some of these guys are in their sleep pods during a sort before flying one more leg.

And FAR 117 rest rules, 10 hr layover with min 8 hr guarantee behind door, and ability to refuse an FDP extension. Night cargo flying is fatigue inducing and ages you more than a regular good old domestic day trip.

No offense to anyone at UPS/FDX, it’s just a type of flying I never applied to or have interest in doing. So a thread about a pax carrier or a cargo carrier career choice needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

How long was it before UPS surpassed AS in pay? If when you started, the pay was almost 50% higher at AS and by the time you left it was a third lower, is it possible you broke even? Also, what were upgrade times? Maybe you weren’t that far behind where you would have been had you gone to UPS.

Very true. But because I didn't go I will never know, therefore the hindsight regret.

Yeah man....I hear you. I have some of that “hindsight regret” too. I just figure that if I took a different fork earlier in life I may have been hit by a bus in some random spot I never made it to😄👍

Your math doesn’t check out.

Cargo pilots report at 530pm west coast or 830pm east coast. They got 15 hours of rest before that.

Pax pilots report at 9pm West Coast, (east coast is impossible) with a minimum of 14 hours of rest, possibly more since they arrived the day before.

Cargo pilots brief 1.0, fly 2.5, nap 2.0, brief 1.0, fly 2.5 and land east coast 530am. (230PST)

Pax pilots brief 1.0, fly 6.0 land east coast 7am. (4AM PST)

Crappiest time to be awake has got to be 2am to 5am. With cargo pilots taking a nap thru the majority of it, while pax pilots fly thru it. Both types of pilots get decent rest before, if not identical.


I think you’re mixing up the day flyers that are departing the airport at 5-6am with the guys are already sleeping in their hotel rooms before the pax redeyes even started their descent. As proven in the above rough calculations.

You think cargo pilots get only 8 hours behind the door? Explain that logic. Once again, use the above calculations, arrive at 4-5am, 8 hours would be a 12-1pm departure? And passenger pilots are the only ones allowed to refuse trips?

Sounds like you’re just digging for excuses to defend your decision more than using facts.

No offense.

I don’t know... I commuted East-West once on FedEx. 757 crew started on the east coast around 8-9 pm, finished after 2 (maybe 3?) legs on the west coast at 9-10 am or so. I saw the “rest” facilities and all. Whole thing was incredibly depressing and fatiguing. To each their own but it looked miserable. $$$ offsets the pain and I’m sure that was a junior schedule but let’s not discount the terrible effects of junior cargo schedules. Things can suck pax wise as well but I’ve never seen anything that horrendous. I’ll take an LAX - BWI redeye all day long over that garbage.

Sounds like you’re offended. The math is skewed in your favor. Insert east coast city here, to IND or MEM or SDF with about a 950-10pm EST show (7pm PST). Fly a 1-2hr flight and then sit the 3.5 hr sort. Then takeoff IND or MEM or SDF to west coast city like LAX or OAK which is another 4-4.5 hr block flight. I’ve jumpseated this way even at a regional and we landed about 5am-6am PST which is 8am-9am eastern. That’s easily 11+ hr duty. Most pax carriers , when they do a transcon redeye it’s very typically only one leg. West to east is about 5.5-6 hr block so duty time total is just 6.5 hrs to 7 hrs.

Btw, pax carriers like JetBlue have east to west coast (reverse) red eyes that do report after 9pm eastern and fly 1 leg. Besides, we’re hung up on the night portion only. I don’t even do redeyes much and it makes up a small portion of the pax carrier’s overall operation.

Maybe you glanced over it, the schedule I originally quoted was UPS 1354 accident crew’s schedule that night. Read through the CVR and hear from their actual conversations how they felt on that flight and about nighttime cargo flying and 117 rules.

Like the guy above said, to each his own but there’s no way I’d want to do that back of the clock night flying with a hub sort. I can’t take a 2 hr nap in a pod. I like flying one and straight through the night if I have to with a 6-7 hr duty day redeye. Your mileage may vary :)

There are a lot of pilots at UPS that can't stand sitting the night sort, either.

Yes, many hub sort trips have 8-11 hours of duty with 2 or 3 legs, and some of them, especially the one coast-SDF-other coast duty periods, don't have much of a rest opportunity in the sort.

While practically impossible to avoid sitting the sort if you're junior, once you have a little seniority you can bid day flying, international, etc. There's quite a bit of schedule variety available to someone once off their initial 18 month seat lock, and sometimes even within it on their original fleet.

Express cargo ain't for everybody...but it also isn't the utterly body-destroying, life-shortening death march some make it out to be. I've found, on average, night sort trips give me more opportunity to exercise than day trips with the same basic sleep opportunity.

Our vacation policy makes it easy to take 2 weeks of vacation and turn it into 4, 6, even 8 weeks off depending on bidding strategy. If you don't mind giving up some pay, one-week vacation slide can give you the same length of time off via conflict drops. All that is to say things are available to help pilots physically recover from the uncontested toll WOCL flying takes on the body over accumulated time.

That is not to say one employer is outright 'better' than the other, only 'better' for a given individual and their own wants/needs/desires.