Alaska or (fill in another airline name)
 

In the interest of saving time and keeping our complaints on track.

Go to the other airline name you filled in, it’s better there. That includes Spirit, PSA, and Mokulele.

Cool story bruh


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Honest question: are you still here by choice or not so much?

This is my last month, have a class date elsewhere. I’d say working here has been a pleasure but it hasn’t.

Well, I genuinely wish you well in your future endeavor.

Thanks. I genuinely wish you all well in turning this airline into a place where people want to stay and fight for what you deserve.

https://youtu.be/aZHvd0ks7Es


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You know these things (contracts / airline biz) ebb and flow over time. 8 yrs ago if you wanted to spend your major airline career based in the NW it was really only one easy option, Alaska.
Alaska was doing a majority of Delta's SEA flying as codeshare, and a good portion of AA's SEA flying as codeshare.
When AK said no to doing Delta's stepped up SEA flying for them to make it into a international west coast hub, that forced Delta to grow their own metal considerably in SEA.
Now a NW wannabe based pilot has options fortunately so therefor hopefully the companies will feel the pressure over time to make sure their contracts are competitive with others in order to hire qualified pilots.

But if they go to another airline I might have guessed it when I played that game... good for my book.

This is fun.

Just curious,

Has Alaskan ever been a destination airline?

And I don’t mean now, because clearly they aren’t now. But have they ever?

And again, this is fun.

Jesus loves you bob.

In all honesty I’m just messing with you guys.

But, I don’t understand why you give guys a such a hard time for leaving. I’ve got a buddy who left and the reaction he got from a lot of fellow pilots was kinda unbelievable and instead of congratulating him, he got ridiculed... Anyways...

I’m sure he/she does 😀

I don’t think anyone cares at all if guys leave. I say thanks for the bump and good luck. The more that leave the better. It sounds like your “buddy” got a bad batch.

Got a couple of aliases there? I was only giving you a hard time for coming onto the b!tch boards and bi!ching. I don’t even work for Alaska. I follow the thread because Alaska was my dream airline since I was six years old. Now, I probably feel the same about Alaska as you do. Best of luck with the new gig. Delta by chance?


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Actually, back in my day it was. The Majors had weird restrictions. Delta required 20/20 vision. United was compensating for an EEOC problem. American had a "Nazi superman" medical.

Then the Majors unilaterally cancelled their A plans. Alaska Captain pay was comparable. 92% across the fleets. That made them slightly higher on the 737-200 but slightly lower on the MD and 727.

Alaska had never furloughed in recent history. It attracted a lot of Eastern, Braniff and PeoplExpress pilots when those airlines went Tango Uniform. Alaska had nowhere near the issues that were prevalent at USAir/Piedmont/America West.

Good medical insurance coverage.

At the time we had pretty good contract language...trips touching training/vacation dropped and credited, 400 hours of Union work paid by the Company that allowed refund of the SMRF and liberal policy about dropping and trading trips. Unfortunately, that's all gone.

Talking to the guys on the property now, especially those with 5 years or less seniority, I can see why they're unhappy. The whole "We Are Family" B.S. Angle Lake spouts is a bad joke.

Alaska has devolved into the West Coast regional (flying 737s and Buses) it has always really been. People are just starting to recognize it. That's the only difference.

Why do you guys get so hung up on the “type” of flying AS does? “Devolved into a West Coast regional”.... It’s the same type of flying that AS has always done with incremental expansion. It’s the same type of flying that SW, Frontier, JB, Spirit, old VX, 70% of UAL, DAL and AA does. You guys try and use “regional” as some type of slur. Why are you guys so enamored with your perceived hierarchy of airlines? Is it necessary to maintain a self image of superiority to get you through the day? That seems debilitating. Who cares where anyone works? The type of flying will never change here at AS unless we get bought. It’s never been in question. It’s the contract we operate that flying that needs to be remedied. You guys should go and enjoy the flying your doing. Even better, go enjoy something outside of flying. It’s a job fellas.

^^This.

I'm always a bit puzzled by that not so subtle slur, based on Alaska's routes. Honestly, why should anybody care?

Mokulele is better. Did I seriously just read that? The salt is still real :eek:

I see, no my buddy isn’t secretly me. I’ve never worked at Alaska.

Anyway, I’ll give up on the trash talk. Good luck to you guys with scope, the merger etc.

P.S. Don’t let some random Delta guy who wanted to harass some Alaska guys affect your dream job...

It was for a few in my reserve squadron. If you you wanted to be based in LAX or SEA back in the late 90's there wasn't much better in terms of holding those bases quickly from new hires status.

Because it ISN'T the type of flying. Its the mentality of Angle Lake. They have a REGIONAL mindset and the result is the route structure. Do you have any idea how long it took Greg Saretsky to get us to Hawaii? 6 or 7 YEARS after he first brought the idea up. "The yields are too low! It'll be filled with mileage freebies." Same song with LAS.

How did they groom senior managers? They all had to do a term of office at Horizon. In Brad's case it was in Accounting. Who do you think is behind "expanding" by adding ASMs and fee for departure RJs instead of more mainline airplanes? Thank a bean counter.

Anyone with wider vision gets squeezed out of the building...Saretsky, Keola Pang-Ching, etc. Throw in the Jet A boys taking over the 2nd floor and a pattern emerges.

Its not the flying, its the REGIONAL culture at Angle Lake that makes AS the 737 regional. As long as that attitude prevails in the puzzle palace they'll require a "poor sister" contract as compared with the Majors.

It took SW many many years to get to Hawaii after it was first conceived. Does that make them a regional? JB is almost our doppelgänger on the East Coast. Are they a regional? You speak of Saretsky as if he’s some type of visionary that was pushed out. He went up to WestJet, and screwed those pilots over. Oh sure, he got widebodys in WestJet paint but they're flown by contract crews not WestJet pilots. Is that the kind of out side the box thinking we need here at AS....? Not to mention he was fired from there too.

Doppelgänger is a stretch:

JetBlue was founded in 1998, it has 3800+ pilots and is getting ready to fly transatlantic.

Alaska was founded in 1932, it has 2800 pilots, and is shrinking back into its Seattle shell because “it’s tough out there.”

JB has mostly 1 fleet of narrow body a/c. AS has mostly 1 fleet of narrow body a/c.
JB focus is east coast with a sprinkling of international flying. AS is West coast with a sprinkling of international flying.
JB top CA pay is $264. AS top CA pay is $266.
JB top FO pay is $177. AS top FO pay is $179.
JB 3800 pilots. AS 3100 pilots.
Looks pretty similar to me....
As far as AS shrinking, show me your info. We've definitely slowed growth but haven't shrunk. So I stand by my doppelganger statement.

The largest fallacy is comparing hourly pay rates, and this has been to the detriment of the AS group for some time. When you compare contracts or “doppelgänger’s” maybe look beyond Section 3. The money is made in the work rules and job protections allow peace of mind, neither of which seem to have been a priority until recently.

They have 242 AC, we have 238... they don’t have 700 more pilots than us to cover four airframes. Wonder why they have so many more pilots and hiring prob double what we are?
Also, they have 151 firm orders of new aircraft 2018 through 2025.... RIGHT NOW.... we’ve pushed the latest “fleet plan” to 1st Quarter of 2020..... which is always subject to change, and even then, we’ll be at the back of the line. AND they’re doing DOMESTIC service with those current A/C. They haven’t even started transatlantic service yet.
We ARE, however pulling out of Love field,... no wait.... we’re expanding service into Love.... no wait... pulling out.... hang on... maybe cutting. 😳

Also, they have a scope clause, and paid redeye override, (($13/hr), min 4hrs/day for training, 100% pay and credit for DH, 5 hrs pay/day vacation, 10 HR RAPs, 2:30 short call time, 14 hour long call time, 30-35 cents more per diem/hr, etc. Yep.... identical twins. 🧐

Yes gentlemen, we have much work to do on our contract. You guys get easily wrapped up in tangents. JB and AS have many many similarities. Similar type of flying, similar fleet size and airframe type, similar pilot group size, similar pay scales, similar market cap, etc. etc. We even have the same percentage of malcontents that post pi$$y rants on APC :D They do their business in the East, we do ours in the West. We can dissect the contracts and look at all the difference but my point is we are two very similar companies neither of which fit the “Regional” model. SQUIRREL!!

Wait. An airline that doesn’t base its staffing model on pilots working during their time off?

How can it be!?


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Alaska or (fill in another airline name)
 

JB has almost 4000 pilots. The last list came out July 1st and it showed 3925 and we have hired two classes since then.

We will have 4200 by the end of the year and projected to hire 400-500 next year.

“Sprinkling of international”? Might want to take a look at the JB route map again. 40 destinations outside the lower 48.


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You want to split hairs over less than a 1000 pilot difference? UAL has 2000 less than DAL and almost 3000 less than AA. Do you consider them vastly different airlines? I consider them very similar in size and scope. Even though their route structures vary and their contracts are far from identical, most everyone, lumps them in together as similar airlines. JB and AS are very similar in size, mission, fleet, focus of bases etc. etc.... Again, we can find differences but the companies look very similar. Just because your doppelgänger in Albuquerque maybe doesn’t like mayonnaise on his peanut butter sandwich as much as you do, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t look an awful lot like you.

All you need to view is the monthly 8-k found in investor relations. June was the first month of the year I believe that mainline flying wasn’t down 1+%. Meanwhile regional has been up around 10-14%

http://investor.alaskaair.com/financial-information/sec-filings

Typically, pilots aspire to leave from the Regionals to go to the Majors because the Terms, Conditions and Compensation (TCCs) are vastly superior..

However over the years, in AS's case, the TCCs has deteriorated so much, that outside of the hourly rate, many Regional Airlines' Terms and Conditions have gotten to be much better than Alaska's - an inversion if you will..

Coupled with that, JetBlue like all the other Majors has a "normal" balance of mixed flying, while AS flying seems to be more heavily slanted towards a Regional type network and there's not much apetite to put their brand out there as a national carrier. And they have said as much....

Across the US, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who DOESN'T KNOW who JetBlue, Delta, American, Southwest or United is.... while we know that outside of the PNW and California, it's the reverse for Alaska - you'd be hard pressed to find someone who KNOWS who we are...

It's this big picture that makes AS look more like a Regional than a Major, and nothing close like a Legacy carrier.... (and yes, I know the Regional vs Major designation has more to do with revenue but that aside, I hope the bigger point is understood).....

The relative difference is greater when you are talking 3000 vs 4000 compared to 12,000 to 14,000 so I'm not sure you made quite the point that you intended.

You're viewing it from the Airbus which has taken on a majority of short hops. Maybe that's what the 190's role at JB is. On the Boeing it's much different.

My only point in this run away thread is that JB and AS are similar airlines. Just like Spirit and Frontier are similar airlines. UAL, AA, DAL are similar airlines. UPS and FedEx are similar airlines. I didn't realize everyone was gonna break out the slide rule and abacus. I keep forgetting I'm talking to a bunch of pilots.

Actually I'm not my friend. I've seen the Boeing lines. They are objectively worse than the Airbus!..... and ours are as bad as they are already..... :) The Boeings are now doing most of the transcons the Airbus used to, but since its a much bigger fleet than ours, proportional to your total flying, you guys are still doing a lot of short hops too..

Whether it's the Airbus or the Boeing doing the majority of the short hops, the point I was trying to make is that compared to the other Major airlines, AS route structure overall is more regional in focus.

My takeaway from the Kool-Aid series, was that they want to own and defend the PNW and now CA with the acquisition of VX, although as they are seeing, the CA market is proving MUCH tougher than they expected....

And apparently, they have lost a LOT of the traction they inherited on the transcons, which was VX's most profitable routes. It seems they thought that by coming in and doing it the AS way, and putting the "superior" Boeings on our transcons, they would win the hearts and minds of the CA flying public. Well, the proof of the pudding was in the eating and the folks did not like the taste, so they decided to take their business to American, JetBlue, United and Delta.....

Historically, AS has not spent the time, energy or other resources to build out the rest of the US like how the other airlines have. Their strength is in their PNW regional network....anything else and we are just a small carrier trying to fake it, till we make it..

We as AS pilots are all collectively doing what we need to, to contribute to this success..... hopefully management is recognizing the deficiencies that exist and are not too myopic, to not make the required adjustments...

You guys keep talking about how poorly we’re performing but our upcoming Q2 projections have been increased twice. Everything I’m reading says we’re starting to outperform our expectations. I think we’re gonna be just fine.

You say “Historically” AS hasn’t spent the time to develop outside the PNW. After 9/11, AS was one of the ONLY airlines to develop their route structure and build their network. Expanding to the East Coast and eventually HI. From ‘13-‘18, AS has grown more than most other airlines in the country. Yes, there have been cut backs on unprofitable routes but there has also been added frequency to many East Coast routes and HI recently. To the chagrin of many who enjoyed 24 overnights in some of those places. (cue the boo hiss section regarding 24 hr overnights).

I don’t think AS inherited any traction on transcons, nor was that their intention. They bought gates. That’s about it. Was that a waste of resources? Yes in every sense. To you and I, it seems they could have done much more with the acquisition but we’re not in charge.

As far as those Koolaid sessions you speak of, I had to think for a minute about what you meant. I realize you’re referring to flight path. Those snake oil conventions are so unremarkable I forgot all about it. Most companies do them and most employees don’t give it a second thought.

Anyways, AS and JB are very similar companies.

AS bought on airline in 2016 so of course they're going to record strong growth albeit inorganic.. I bet you though, that they would not have bought VX in 2016, if they weren't forced to...

Anyways, I never said we're doing poorly in the sense you just said it. We are doing poorly on transcons but we are profitable overall because of AS' bread and butter regional routes. The company has admitted that...

The company right now is actively trying to drum up support for the transcons as the yields have fell off from what it was upon VX's acquisition and are nowhere near their targets/expectations .. Ask a gate agent about it if you're not familiar with the briefing from mgmnt and what is being done...

Aren’t all purchases out of some form of necessity? SW bought AT out of the necessity to grow and compete. Also the necessity to knock off competition. Same thing with all recent mergers. DAL/NW, UAL/CAL, USA/AA/AW.... Do you think these things happened just because there was some cash lying around and the board needed a project to keep them busy? It was necessary for each of these things to happen for the current surviving companies to thrive, stay competitive and exit bankruptcy. I’m sure the individual companies could have struggled through and last a little longer but the companies thought it necessary to combine in order to stay in the game. Same goes for AS. We were doing fine. Making money and holding our own prior to the purchase of VX. You all say the same of VX. Both companies could have stayed the course and muddled through but the buyer and the seller thought it necessary to combine for a better, more competitive future.

AS’ growth is inorganic....no airline in the last decade has grown organically. All the major players besides JB, NK and F9 have gone through mergers. The reason each is so massive is because of inorganic growth. It also took each of those airlines a number of years to fully recognize the benefits of the mergers. Each one experienced an uphill slog at first.

Every company “drums” up business. That’s what $49 fares are. That’s what fire sales and 2 for ones are. You think AS is the only one that “drums” up business? AS is gonna be fine.