Not only yes, but he!! yes. And HA's west coast flights only go to Hawaii.

I'll play CEO/inner circle for a day or two.... what the heck, it's kinda fun.
Obviously, Virgin will be operated separately for a couple more years. Same certificate....what exactly does that mean? The Airgroup (Horizon+Virgin+Alaskan) or Alaskan Airways? At this point, it really doesn't matter since we virtually have zero scope.
After the Airbus leases run out, I'd grow Horizon, buy a bunch of E190s, and have Horizon fly them. All Virgin employees will be integrated into Horizon and those who want a shot at Alaskan will get the same preference as the current Horizon employees. Depending on the market demand and growth, the Airgroup can opt to put bigger planes (Alaskan -800, -900, & Max) in these markets and once again promise growth to this pilot group with a big "IF". This is a win-win for the pax, company, and share holders. There will be no mess with dealing with seniority integration at Alaskan and the stability will make Wall Street happy, which in turn will make the company happy.
Pilot integration ASAP or we will be screwed once again, my friends.

So what if they only go to Hawaii now......the slots/gates/planes can be used to go anywhere......it's about significantly increasing presence in an area at a rapid pace......what they do with the assets once they get them can be different than what they're being used for currently....

Dude, 2 flights per day out of SFO and 5 out of LAX is a lot different than what VX flies out of those airports.
They fly out of the international terminal in SFO and terminal 2 in LAX. They likely borrow other airlines' gates or use common use gates at every airport on the west coast they operate out of.

Hawaii's strength is their flights to and from Hawaii. And a large percentage of those flights go to destinations other than CONUS.

Yes, since both the carriers are ALPA, regardless of contract, under federal law ALPA merger policy will apply. There is no way in hell both carriers will come to an agreement, meaning arbitration is 100% likely. The number 1 Virgin guy, is likely to be number 2 on the combined list. Welcome to the downside of being ALPA-ALPA, the more senior airline always gets the shaft.

Exactly. And when that happens, all these koom by ya rituals will come to an abrupt halt. The pilot groups will be even more divided. All the more reason for the MEC not to dick this up.

Wow, I never thought about airgroup putting VX pilots with Horizon. Is this even legally possible? If it is possible, I'm sure thats what they will try to do. Alaska has always told us at Horizon that they don't want a real flow through because they want to control the interviews and exactly who is hired, and they didnt hire anyone at Horizon. If Virgin pilots merge with Alaska list, then they lose control over roughly 600 pilots that they never interviewed.

Merger policy is designed to do one thing, send it to arbitration so ALPA doesn't get a DFR suit. You have no control over the process, neither does the MEC, hell they won't even talk to you about it because of a possible DFR.

The only advice I can give is always get a joint CBA first, best to at least get paid during the battle.

There's no way this can happen. The prime directive in the ALPA Merger/Frag policy is that neither pilot group gain any windfalls in seniority. To place a 9 year VX Capt alongside a 30 year AS Capt would be a HUGE windfall gain in seniority. For the same reason, it would be grossly unfair to VX pilots to suggest any form of staple as happened in the SWA/AT debacle.

It's way more likely and reasonable that the VX pilots are placed on the list either with DOH or a ratio with AS pilots hired at the same time. Combine that with a No Bump/No Flush clause that insures NO CURRENT VX or AS Capt loses their seat unless they bid out of it.

There are NO "career expectations" since the best BOTH groups could expect to hold is narrowbody Captain. I would expect this SLI merger to go as smoothly as the DAL/NWA merger where individual pilots neither lost or gained significant relative seniority.

I do know that I've had to wait on a Hawaiian flight at our gate in LAX before, because they used to borrow our gates at 5. With the move to 3, who knows now?

Putting the top VA CA along side the top AS CA would be putting the top 1% along side the top 1%. How is the VA CA gaining anything he didn't have prior?

DOH?

You're way off.

Then you finish saying you expect nobody to gain or lose relative seniority? Which is it? If it's DOH it's certainly not honoring relative seniority.

My question would be what are the Alaska pilots getting out of the deal? I don't have a dog in the hunt but the VX pilots are coming into the merger without a contract and lower pay rates. That is going to cost the company money to bring them up to the Alaska rates and contract. So unless you guys can negotiate a new joint contract with better rates for everyone the only thing the Alaska guys are getting is a possible loss in seniority out of the deal.

I don't think that they could put the #1 AS pilot and then the #1 VX pilot as number two, and so on. That would be a huge windfall with regards to seniority because AS acquired VX and AS is MUCH more senior than VX. The argument is that you can't put a nine year captain ahead of a 30 year captain. Another part of the equation is the fact that the most senior VX captain is around the upgrade mark at AS. Longevity usually rules during an integration.

Another point, Horizon and it's pilots have no part of a seniority integration between major airlines. They are a regional airline and career expectations are completely different.

Alaska and Virgin are both regionals.

Better check your facts. This is true for the majority, but there are a group of FNWA that got hosed. Many FNWA Capt's should be in the top 500 who are around 3000. Some will never see the true wide-body max pay and are stuck in the 75/76 until the end.

Didn't the Morris guys make out like bandits? The VX guys should be seat protected but have their numbers mixed in at a large ratio, maybe 20-1? I have a handful of AS friends (10/06) who turned the recent upgrade, not wanting to do the ANC commute and they could now be held out for years. Not right.

I liked the post about AAG keeping them separate and then flowing them through Horizon....seems safe.

Just my $0.02

Baja.

No, I don't think that you are correct. Regional Airlines don't fly from one coast to the other and do not have ETOPS flights. Regionals do not have 112-165ish seats on their airplanes. Financially speaking, I think VX is a National and Alaska is a Major.

Don't feed the troll.

You are right about "no career expectations" since they are both all narrow body airplanes, but taking the existing #1 VX Captain and putting him with pilots with 9 years seniority isn't going to happen. He may not be #2 overall, but he's not going to go from .01% seniority to 40% seniority.

These two pilot groups are going to share in the benefits of the merger. DOH is not going to happen. UAL didn't even propose that with us which would have stapled about 1,700 CAL 2005-2008 hire pilots on the bottom because they recognized it would not be adopted. Even with that longevity have weighted in, CAL pilots are in equal positions with UAL pilots hired 8 years ahead of us. That's WITH longevity. Status and Category is going to be the driver, I'm afraid.

I predict relative seniority +/- 5% as was in the UAL CAL and NWA DAL mergers.

Disclaimer: I have friends at both airlines.

Prior to the UAL/CAL SLI we had 10/06 hires at CAL making Captain, and that came to a halt after SLI. UAL pilots took by far most of the Captain upgrades (on the 737 which they didn't have) for the next 3 years. It's just now (3 years later) that those same pilots who were able to upgrade can finally do it again.

Especially if AS management doesn't take the airplanes, you're going to have a SW/AT type deal where you got 100% of the purchased airline's pilots, but only 75% of their planes. In this case you may not end up with any of their planes.

777 FO? I didn't realize Alaska or Virgin had any of those. So you're trolling this thread because? Any pilot figure out the math on the merger and somehow change their lives for the better? No? Looks like the merger is happening anyway.

You get routes , planes are rented

United had a market value around 8 billion and Cal had a market value 4 Billion.....

1750 pilots at Alaska
620 pilots at Virgin


Therefore 2/1 is the fair way without getting status displaced... A captain stays a captain

For every 2 year at virgin you get 1 year at the combined company

For paying purposes DOH and that's a great raise for Virgin pilots with 13.5 % match versus 8 as well as lifetime job security almost since Alaska is here to stay and a great company.


Best of Luck anyway

PS I have friends at Both companies and they seem to think it's fair the 2/1 solution

The 2/1 works except each year AS captains will retire and VX captains won't. After 5-10 years the top 100-200 pilots would all be VX. If career expectations are honored a pilot shouldn't go from retiring in the top 20 to the top 300.

I'm not trying to troll. Just pointing out that QX employees get **** on by the air group. Reasoning, because they are a regional. Many at QX have been trying to get in with Alaska and passing on LCC's like Virgin. Places where a college degree is not required. We are told we are lesser daily, now others are thumbing their nose at 30 year Alaska Air group employees and justifying our 3rd tier status because that is the way it is, which is not an answer. By many of the metrics stated above, you are not much different then a skywest employee. Transcons, etops, RPM, but you still see yourselves as superior, because it makes you feel justified. This enables the whipsaw of employees.

Numbers are inaccurate

So i'm new to the airline world and don't quite understand all about M&A's, but, it seems to me that an acquisition should be treated different than a merger. So, if mergers create better opportunities for both companies, then it makes sense that seniority lists should be equitably integrated. However, if one company acquires the other, why wouldn't those pilots just get stapled to the bottom? If nobody acquired VX and they just went under, then everyone is out of a job. If the company was a solid career gameplan, they wouldn't be in the position of closing the doors or seeking a buyout. Thus, why would a VX hire who couldn't get on with Alaska be able to jump them in seniority? I get it if its a merger, but isn't this a buyout? I'd be ****ed if I was at a solid company like Alaska and someone from another company we bought so they didn't go under jumped ahead of me.

VX wasn't going under, wasn't in bankruptcy or headed that way.

USAir wasn't stapled after being rescued by an albeit smaller America West.

Obviously youre new to the airline world

As a former QXer, I am well aware of what AAG does to their red headed step-child. I spent six years there before punching out and making a lateral move to another regional. All that I am stating is that from an arbitration standpoint, AS and VX are not on the same level that QX is. QX should not even be involved with their integration.

And obviously you have no idea what you're talking about.

Egos don't get out of the airline business because their baby is printing cash. If you aren't raking it in right now, you're in major trouble once economic conditions change, and they will. While US Air was a POS, it was still a merger, right? An acquisition is different. From what I read this is an acquisition, or does ALPA run the show on SLI regardless of M or A? That's the intent of my question more or less.

yeah, i know, I said that. anything else to add?

Ya

Youd be p***ed off and then either have to live with the result or start a drive to vote out ALPA. Ask how that worked out for US Airways. Good luck

The investment banking world of Mergers and Acquisitions, have different definitions of the word "merger" than the ALPA policy.

Regarding ALPA, a "merger" is used when two events exist

1) Both pilot groups are represented by ALPA

2) There is a reasonable probability that the flying will be integrated

So since both groups are ALPA and the flying will likely be integrated, the pilot lists will be "merged" according to the policy.

Remember the union wants to protect union jobs, so if AS management decides 4-5 years down the road to park all the VA airplanes, they will still have those pilots on the AS seniority list because the union wants to protect all the pilots jobs.

Even if AS fragments the flying as SW did with AT, those VA pilots are going to be AS pilots.

Right up until the point they're not.

I think we need to end the BS. Regionals exist to suppress wages. I think it is BS that 35 year employees at QX will be bumped by the parents and kids of Virgin employees off of Alaska flights. Is this the same arbitrator that awarded Alaska pilots 25% pay cuts? The industry is rigged against pilots, and pilots enable it. I don't expect a merger of Alaska and QX, but I expect to be treated like an employee of the air group.

I understand what you're saying, but the reality is different. When AS and VX are integrated, QX pilots will unfortunately be on the outside looking in. You will still have priority on your metal. Alaska metal will still give Alaska employees priority which will include VX Pilots.

This ain't USAir. I'd take my chances with a in house union at this point as this MEC has traditionally been very weak, rolling over like weak dogs at the first sign of conflict. If they screw us on this I will join the drive to vote them out.

Lots more who agree with me.

You are your mec. If they are weak you vote them out and install the right people. And no you can't pull the us air shenanigan of voting out alpa to stop a seniority integration award. The only reason the easties got away with it is because back then seniority integration happened first and then the joined contract. The easties kept from getting a joined contract, voted out ALPA, formed USAPA, and essentially kept the nicolau award off property. We cant do that because we will have a joined contract first and then a seniority integration award.

Ah, ok. Good explanation.