Should you leave AA?
 

Well we have a thread for coming to AA. How about one for leaving?
10+ years here and talked to an ex-coworker who's been at Delta only about 4 years and making more now than I do, with a better schedule to boot. I've got over 20 years left and beginning to think this place might be a write off. Seriously anyone else thinking the same thing? Starting to kick myself for not considering a bail sooner.

Delta didn't hire from Oct 2010 until Jan 2014. Just putting that out since you said about 4 years...

I contemplated it very seriously. But with 2000ish junior to me I decided it was best to stay. UA, DL, FX and UPS have hired a ton of guys in the last few years. If I left for DL, for example, it'd be close to a 5000 number swing.

I've heard horror stories of guys chasing airlines and I don't want to be one of them. It should get better here with time. There's a ton of retirements coming up and god forbid another downturn you don't want to be at the end of a massive seniority list.

I've been here since November and I'm honestly contemplating other options. Mostly out of the airline business because the flying itself is boring on top of the crappy work rules and poor management.

Once you are at an airline like American, it makes little sense to move laterally since it's going to be the same pile of sh!t at any other place. The only reason to move would be to a place where you don't have to commute and you like that certain base that certain airline offers. The job itself is not going to be any better and you would have to go through probation again. You are probably better off at American since all the retirements are coming up. Good luck,

amereican has the most retirements of all the majors coming. If your there I wouldn't leave.

Should you leave AA?
 

Same as any flying job except flying fighters. Did you expect it to be different?

Edit to add once you get on third year pay the boredom is worth it.

Please bail!

I'd love to move up a number! (And it will be entertaining to see you crying about delta in a couple years.)

There has never been a time in history when DAL was worse off then AA. Delta has much better management and always has.

If you commute for either one or live in a DAL base the choice is a no-brainer. IMO.

I would at least apply first, you can't turn down a job you don't have.

Over time, DAL, SWA, jetBlue, and Spirit/Frontier are going to eat our lunch. Our product is crap compared to DAL/jetBlue and our front facing people are bitter and absolutely hate customers. Hell, even our own employees hate each other.

Why am I still here? I plan to move/retire to a junior AA base and AA can at least give me a couple more years so I can walk away if needed.

Everyone senior to me should bail

Interesting thread, I left Continental in 91 for AA, thought it was a "no brainer". Better retirement, gone, better pay, not any more. If I had stayed I'd be a 777 CA at United, here I'm a junior A320 CA. Hindsight being 20/20 I'd be better off if I had stayed but you can't look back. Do what works best for you and your situation.

I stand corrected. I just got the text, he was hired May 2014. Makes more and more time off....... this place sucks much larger donkey dong than I thought.

Going from Continental to AMR in 91 was a no brainer. Continental had the worst pay and was always in financial trouble. Until recently, Continental had very poor pay so I don't think you missed out on much.

So Delta was better off when they announced bankruptcy and AA had not yet?
My dad has flown at Delta since 85 and my mom since 96 and both have told me they have taken their turn at the bottom. Everyone will and right now it's AA because we are last out of bankruptcy and merging three airlines.
Every airline can be great or HELL depending on who they hire as a CEO and President. AA will have their day at the top and bottom just like everyone else has.

Yep.

Delta wasn't always sunshine and lollipops.

Some would say that Leo was pretty crappy mgmt. He brought in all sorts of people from banking and utilities who didn't understand airlines in the least.

And he made sure a few dozen of them got bankruptcy-proof pensions (and lifetime positive space 1st class travel) before he-and they-all bailed.

You are right. It's a huge mistake to think that anything stays the same very long in this industry.

The biggest problem I have are the structural issues. Buying back stock instead of investing in the product/service first is the biggest one.

Delta made moves (and is continuing to do so) to position themselves well. Now they are raking in the money. We are doing the opposite - spending the money now hoping it continues to roll in into the future.

Just IMO.

Ive been thinking about it as well. I've got 2000+ under me though, so there's no way I would do that. I can drive to work and the retirements are huge.

More than 10% underneath anyone would make leaving a rather foolish choice unless of course it would eliminate a commute. The paycut would be huge, probation again, possible furlough because of forfeited seniority would make it even worse.

UAL was sh*t hot in the late 90's, then SWA and now DL. Things change. They always do. 5-7 years from now half the pilot group is going to be recycled. If you're on 1st or 2nd year pay and live in Atlanta though, tougher choice.

Get hired first and then make it.

Yup. People here talk as if they can move to any airline they want just because they fly for AA. First you have to get the interview and then you need to be offered a job. THEN you can make a decision.

Sheesh. Cart before the horse.

With that said, if you have ten years here and you are even half seriously considering leaving for DL now, then, well....

Delta definitely has better management but they've bought back lots of stock as well.

Delta is like Alaska. You go do the interview then say no thanks you can kiss ever getting another interview goodbye. I'll never get another call from Alaska Air group, because I said thanks, but no thanks. You make the decision to go first, then go and don't look back.

450 you have point, but like the guy above said don't burn a bridge. I interviewed and was hired with AirTran before 911. I turned them down. When the **** hit the fan post 911 I couldn't get sqat from
them. Even with 3 capts walking my stuff in.

You got hired at at Major Airline at age 35.
You WILL retire a wide body captain. You will most likely spent 15 years as an F/O and 15 as a Captain. Pretty good career IMO.
I'd stop looking over the fence.

AA has never been the airline that it thinks it is. Crandall was great at financials, Parker is a product of he Crandall system. It seems over the last 30 years that AA was always the airline last to react to market changes. They were not the leader except in B scale wages.

There are huge systematic flaws here that can be fixed but it will take money and leadership. DECS and the Sabre system are dinosaurs and will take billions to upgrade. Everything you do is run through a 1960s computer system. My paycheck today was so screwed up it was unreal. Trying to piece together information on my February schedule online was impossible. Luckily I have been creating paper trails of my sequences so I have some history. Other guys I speak to have had big pay issues as well. Things like this are symbolic of how an entrenched mindset and lack of nimbleness can disrupt your life.

As far as contracts go we are way behind. It's going to take a wholesale takeover by the junior pilots flying domestic to make some much needed lifestyle changes. It can be done but it's going to take a lot of effort. And this contract needs the work, it's below many regionals in everything except pay.

Having a seniority number means the world. You give up that number and many things can happen and most of them are not good. This business is definitely cyclical and a crapshoot. You'll know when you retire if you made the right choice. You won't really know before then because things can change in a heartbeat. You are better served staying put and working to make changes through the union. Volunteer, send p2 reports, be active in pushing forward.

I think just the fact that you have pilots with 10+ years considering leaving unfortunately says a lot about the current state of our airline/culture. Some of it could be just blowing off steam on the internet, but I've talked to some in person that seem to be serious about going elsewhere. Unfortunately not all of them are senior to me:D

Consider that the ten plus year FO's have become jaded by being stuck in the right seat for SO long. Can't blame them, honestly. It wears them down.

With that said, this era is not the same. Upward movement is happening. Those ten year guys are starting to see upgrades. The more junior guys will spend MUCH less time in the right seat, which makes for happier pilots overall.

This place has nowhere to go but up, and it will. Every airline has had its turn at the bottom. Some great and insightful posts on this thread, but the overall consensus is - stay put. Every airline, yes even Delta, has its share of Debbie Downers that talk about "leaving this dump." Nobody ever does - well, maybe a couple out of 15,000, and that only when there are some dang good and personal reasons to do so. Like what was said above, seniority is EVERYTHING, and to leave just because things are better elsewhere is pretty foolish...this industry is cyclical.

American is a lot of things good and not so good, but in the end this is still a legacy career job and a dang good one at that. We're just doing our tour of duty at the bottom that every other airline pilot has done. Hang in there and get involved to help expedite the necessary changes...and good changes will come...be patient.

Perspective... I spent two years as the rock bottom plug "native" AA pilot commuting from DFW to NYC bottom MD80 reserve - number last out of 10,000 pilots. Missed the entire 9/11 furlough (2900 pilots) by ONE NUMBER. believe me, I've had many, many days where I seriously considered jumping ship. So glad I never did, and in the end I was blessed to remain on the property while thousands of my fellow pilots got laid off - I should have been one of them. That was the 2005-2007 time frame. Today, 10 years later I am upgrading to CA...it took 17 years total from new hire (I was a 2/00 hire) - and in the next 20 years I gain 9000 seniority #s. It's gonna go that fast.

Stay put, get involved, and Make American Great Again :D

I'm a spring of 14 hire, theoretically retire in top 300. And to be honest, I think about it weekly. Went as far as just put in a app a few weeks ago to FedEx. I wouldn't leave for any other legacy though they've hired too many by now and I wouldn't be anywhere near same number as I will at AA.

But, putting my toe in the water and actually jumping in (if I even get an interview as another poster pointed out) are 2 different things.

My confidence that things will get better dwindles everyday but sometimes I already feel like I'm past V1 with AA. I think you ask a valid question and honestly I think about it too.

Fedex has hired a while lot of guys in the last couple years as well. I was in the same boat for awhile. I was super bitter and wanted to gtfo. But I don't live in any other airlines domicile and I have a ton of people junior to me. This career is about numbers and you will be giving up a LOT to jump ship.

I ran numbers 5 years out for a jump to UPS. Used 150/hr at AA for every year and the published UPS pay scale. AA came out ahead slightly. Over the next 35 years things will change but the numbers will probably be quite similar for the 2 jobs.

I did the same calculations with FedEx using a 1 for 1 with each pay scale, and assuming a CA upgrade at AA at the 7 year point. FedEx was ahead by over $150k at the 10 year mark.

My projections started on AA 5th year pay bc thats where I am and UPS year 1. So mine are different than yours. But the numbers are a crap shoot really. Another factor to consider is AA will get a new contract sometime around 2020 with narrowbody captain rates near the 300 mark. Obviously Fedex will get a new contract eventually as well so its hard to project accurately. And over the course of ones career as it stands now FDX/UPS will undoubtedly make more. Enough to give up a lot of seniority? For me, no.

Even if AA is 150k less over 10 years thats only 15k/yr. After taxes thats 800/mo. Thats not insignificant but its not mind-blowing.

If you've been at AA under a year it makes sense to jump. You start getting over a year and it gets a whole lot more questionable.

Should you leave AA?
 

The only other 121 job I'd leave for is FedEx. IF they opened their Alliance sort facility as a crew base. If you live in base, are year 3 pay or above, the 'golden handcuffs' get quite comfortable!

Edit:

IF I commuted, I'd be looking for domiciles I could live in (1), seniority/pay comparisons (2). If I was going to commute no matter what - FedEx without a doubt. Two close friends there, they both love it a lot more than I like AA.

One thing not to forget is the value of the pension. You would have to make an extra $2 million or so at AA over the course of a career to match the value of a $120k/Year pension at UPS. UPS and FedEx are way ahead of all the airlines if you are looking at it from just the compensation angle.

The big question wrt "Career V1" is an inexact, philosophical one. The 2 main groups seem to fall into 2 categories: 1) Those who have a "brass ring" type of position, but not their first choice. 2) Potential "Captain/Lifestyle Lifers" at a regional, ULCC, or ACMI outfit, 50 something.

No dog in the hunt for me, but this thread relevant to Category 1. Offhand, I'd say that if you have 2 or more years with company, and are above the bottom 10% seniority, you'd be better off sticking around, unless there are strong domicile preference issues. Even then, still a bit of a crap shoot.

When did 10 yrs as an FO become an eternity? There were pilots who used to spend several years as SOs, the. FOs, then made Capt a few years in time to retire at 60.
At Delta many 10+ FOs remain in that seat on purpose which is why you see such junior narrow body Capt's in NYC and now ATL.
After reading this thread, sometimes I think Deltas largest competitive advantage is being union free with the exception of the pilots. For better or worse it surely makes it easier for Mgmt to cull the herd of bad apples.

Very true. But for people with 30+ years left there is absolutely no guarantee the pension will be there when you retire. Just look at every other airline, and industry for that matter. It will probably be there but you never know. 30 years is a long time.

OTS civilian new hire here. I had an offer with FX and AA. I picked AA and deleted all my other apps. I didn't want to fly at night, commute to Memphis, or risk being replaced by Amazon and drones. AA has the best bases and fastest movement. I have 34yrs of flying ahead... Management and contracts will come and go many times in that time. DL may be the best right now, but they won't be forever!

AA is a good gig. Don't forget all the thousands of RJ drivers out there that would kill to be here. Be grateful!

You should know better than to come on here with all that positive talk! :D

Upper mgmt can change.

I get the feeling AA is about to see such a change.
The board can't possibly be happy with all the stock buybacks in lieu of debt pay down.

I'm sure the board is happy with the buybacks, they're good for the stock price. They're probably just as short-sighted as Parker.

LOL

The BODs are the folks responsible for the decision to buy back stock. They also control the issuance of debt. So, even if Parker disagrees it doesn't matter. The BOD in essence runs the company, they are Parker's boss.