737 vs 320 for New Hire
 

Good afternoon everyone!

I’ll be in new hire class in about 2 months. I have couple of question for those who are already at AA. My end goal is to be based in DFW as quickly as possible regardless if I can hold a line or not. My base preference in order as new hire if they offer all would be LAX, MIA, LGA and PHL.

Which equipment would you recommend I bid for? 737 or 320?

Which equipment gives you a faster upgrade?

Which equipment gets me a line the fastest?

Those who have flown both airplanes which one do you prefer and why?

Any other information that you think is important for me to know or consider please do share.

Thanks!

Filler....

Be prepared for the onslaught of guys telling you how much the 737 sucks, yet they've never flown it.

I’ve been here 2yrs on the 190. Looking at my seniority in each base/fleet, I’d be anywhere from 10-30% more senior on the 737 in bases that offer both fleets. Legacy US 320 bases are super stagnant at the moment.

I’ve flown it. It sucks.

I don’t think it sucks. But the AB is a better job.
Have you flown both? It’s tough to compare if you havn’t flown both. But the difference you see jumpseating is similar to the job difference so guys who’ve flown one but jumpseated enough on the other airplane see the difference.

The comparison has come up before. One, or maybe two, guys who’ve flown both said they prefer the 737. The majority of guys who’ve flown both prefer the AB.

Would I commute to fly, or avoid, either airplane? Absolutely not. They’re not that much different that you need to avoid one. If it works for you just bid it.

I have flown both.

I would go A-320. We are getting more A320's than B737's in the next 2 years. DFW is growing, I think you'd get there faster on the Airbus.

I've flown both. I'll never fly the 737 again unless I'm forced onto it somehow.

Bid the Bus for comfort
Bid the Boeing for character

good luck ;)

I'll be a few months behind you, but my situation is the exact same. My end result is to be based in DFW whenever the time comes.

I have talked to several current guys and the consensus seems to go Airbus. However, I think (opinion only) that some of the 737 trips out of MIA might be a bit better than Airbus trips elsewhere. So, depending on the commute, MIA wouldn't be too bad until seniority/bid makes DFW an option.

And your preference, if everything else is the same, is?

25 years sof herding DC-9's around...
Got plenty character
Ready for easy:)

AB vs 737 debate #21,302 on this forum...


It really comes down to what you value more:


-If you value comfort, a quieter airplane, and/or a more automated airplane, then bid the Bus
-If you value quality of life, fewer redeyes, more seniority (resulting in getting a line sooner), better trips, lower rates of reassignments mid-trip, and flying a less automated airplane, then bid the 737


For reference, I fly the 737, I'm relatively junior system-wide, I'm based at home (non-commuter), I'm in the bottom 10% in base, and I hold a line with an average of 16+ days off per month. I have NOT flown the bus, but I have sat in dozens of bus jumpseats - the bus is more spacious and a bit quieter as others have attested, but I also come from over a decade of flying RJs, which are MUCH louder and more cramped than the 737. I'm happy where I am, and I don't plan on changing equipment until I get awarded widebody flying or upgrade.

While I don't have first hand experience, I have heard the DFW/MIA commute is probably one of the tougher ones... YMMV

How much more senior is the bus than the 73 in lga?

Thanks

Junior 320 FO in LGA is 15005....most junior 737 is 14997......so really a wash for the "newhire placement" bases....

737. I enjoy the way it flies. It's very simple to operate. Like aa73, I still enjoy flying airplanes.

Currently, my seniority is much better on the 737 and I think the flying is better.

Thanks. Any discernable difference in the trips between the two in lga?

I just looked at the September PBS awards. I choose September to get away from holiday bidding. I looked at guys 300, 500, and 1,000 from the bottom. It looks like the current guys had slightly faster bidding quality advancement on the 737.

There's a lot of movement so trying to forecast what it will be like in 6 months is tough.

Obviously guys are very interested in trying to make the best decision today for what the world will be like 3-4 months after they get hired. If someone wants LAX/LGA/MIA/PHL, and they're not super junior in their class, they can get the base. PHX/DCA/UDC/BOS awards for March went to guys hired in September 2018. Six months, including about three months in training and IOE. So they commuted for three months to reserve before moving to the next best base.

The only options not available to a six month LOS guy right now are ORD/DFW/CLT. The junior award for a March transfer to DFW on the Airbus went to a guy hired 11 months earlier(April 2018). The junior 737 guy took 14 months(Jan 2018 new hire).

Trying to make the 'perfect' decision for a manning decision 11-14 months after you got hired is impossible. And then trying to look 6-12 months later to see what lines you'd be able to hold? We can view what's happening today, and make a judgement assuming the future is the same as it is today, but there's zero confidence in that happening.

A fleet planning chart I just looked at (hopefully still current) shows AG and 737 deliveries in 2019-2021.

If you want to go to a specific base that doesn't have one fleet type I'd try to get the airplane that is based there. For BOS and ORD that's the 737. CLT, PHL and PHX is the 320.

If you think you're going to commute try to commute on line. Next try to commute on AB's(two jump seats). Four AB's flights (8 jump seats) might be better than 6 737 flights (6 jump seats).

And once you're on property you'll have several months to watch how your relative seniority, and the opportunities that develop as retirements accelerate and flying changes slightly in bases, which gives you the chance to switch to the other n/b after 9-15 months (plus up to 3 months lag for the actual award).

I tell guys to expect the first two years to perhaps be a grind if you're trying to get to X base. Right now that's ORD with CLT and DFW as the next toughest at just around a year, or slightly longer. Retirement increases in CLT (86/92 next two years) and DFW (112/156) specifically might generate more opportunities so the lag might shorten.

It's hard to imagine ORD being less than 2-2.5 years. First it shrunk, then STL closed, and now the 787 Asia flying went away and the company says they won't displace from it, they'll just let attrition/retirements fix the temporary overstaffing. Surely that will trickle down to 737 FOs looking to move up and stagnate it for longer. Between that and the ORD CAs being a little younger as a whole, I wouldn't worry about limiting yourself to the 737 to wait for ORD, it's going to be a while.

Here's how I simplify it for my buds who ask me a strategy to get into a more senior base, which is a variation on Slice's comment:
On draft day, there's no reason to sweat the airplane you choose. Your focus should be on selecting a base that makes for the most manageable commute and most manageable reserve duty. Your initial seat lock will expire well before your seniority can get you into Base X, so if you find that the Bus gets you to DFW more quickly than the 73 (or vice versa), then it's no big deal.

I even recommend to avoid the trap which is, "I want CLT, therefore I must get the Bus" or (...ORD...737). Since it will take 12 months or more, you can bid for training on the new equipment when you crack into Base X.

Freed advice....worth what you paid for.

The problem with that is a 737 to 320 (or vice versa) bid will often get withheld for a year. If you want a base that only has one of the narrowbodies, you're better off being on the equipment they have there. The OP is specifically talking about DFW, so it doesn't matter much to him which he gets, they're both around a year for DFW. The last year or two we had more 737 deliveries, but over the next 2 years we will have more AB deliveries, for that I'd recommend the 320.

One more thing to note, if you get the 320 and are trying to figure out the easiest commute until you get DFW I would HIGHLY recommend not bidding PHL. We are currently running a bid for displacements into E-190 captain. PHL based pilots coming off probation are at risk for this. It is NOT limited to E-190 FOs.

Yep. The 73 trips is LGA are garbage. Lots of non-commutable early departures/late arrivals and plenty of EWR.

The bus has a lot more commutable trips and one leg out to the west coast type trips.

September bid for guys 300, 500, and 1,000 from the bottom appeared to favor bidding the 737. Except some of that was EWR flying. EWR is tougher for a commuter.

And those AB guys had none commutable front and back trips. To have some seniority to avoid that looks like it comes to the 737 slightly sooner and they'd need to be approx. 1,000 more senior at which point the only bases that aren't available right now are ORD and CLT.

when does 3xp update again? I ask because as a guy on property about 1 year, the seniority difference between 737 and 320 LGA is minimal. I also notice there are less EWR trips on the 320 plus "I think" there is some growth planned for 320 LGA.

216 FO slots projected in May 2019 on the 737 v 206 on the 320.
216 is about what the 737 LGA had last spring but the 320 had sub 190 if my memory serves me correctly. I have been watching it because ORD looks like a pipe dream for now and I have decided LGA is the place for me and I need to decide 737 v 320 (currently on 737).

If you want ORD, go [stay on] 737.

Commuter either way. upper 1/3 in lga or bottom guy pulling short call at ord?

Stay on the 737. Junior ORD awards are about 780 numbers senior to the guy who just hit his first year anniversary. If that rate holds constant he'd be able to hold ORD in ten months or roughly January 2020.

Sometimes the door opens and guys are able to go through the door. If you incur a 320 lock-in you'd be stuck for the next 2 years. The next opportunity for switching to the AB is the June (?) bid run. You could be incurring an 18 month delay (all +/- estimates) if you switch to the AB.

Even ORD is a commute? That's a different equation. Which is a better deal for you? Holding a line, and making more money, vs sitting SC when both are commutes is a different answer for different people.

The company 3XP (on aapilots) usually updates within a week after the Final Vacancy Award. So probably this week. Just realize that that product includes all pilots, even inactive, so it’s not as accurate. The APA 3XP just updates after each monthly schedule bid I believe.

How about LAX trips?

Hahaha!

Burn!!

I wanted the bus so bad in training as CLT only has the bus as an option as of now. The person 1 number senior to me in class got the last bus slot. I was sick to my stomach. I did not want the 737. Turns out it was the best thing to happen. All things being equal, give me the bus but I was able to move to a domicile that made commuting and QOL much easier (being DCA based now) than it would if I chose to stick with the bus.

So for the first 12-24 months of your AA career, do you value QOL or airplane type more? That's not a rhetorical question as everyone has a different answer.

If you like flying red eyes, you’ll love LAX!


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No clue. I only really look at LGA.

....or put another way, trips that are only commutable on the front side!!

Some commuters tend to bid all nighters vs the early/late long two days. Those touch four days with commuting vs the three day impact of all nighters. All nighters have a smaller impact on your time at home.

So when someone talks about how quickly someone is holding a line the type of line matters. In LGA a couple of years ago the junior line holders were holding all nighters. Which was fine for some commuters. I spoke with a former FO that had upgraded. Mid pack Captain now. He actually bids all nighters higher than most of his peers - "after years of international flying an all nighter is no big deal" and I get a lot of the days off that I want."

Although I now prefer the Bus to the 737, I’m glad for the time I spent on the 737 and all the various aircraft I’ve flown here. New hires need to remember that even if the aircraft/base you get isn’t the one you want, it’s going to be very temporary.

While going through recurrent last month an instructor gave us old guys something to think about. He said all of you that have less than 5 years to go, raise your hand. There were quite a few. He said “Just think, if you’re pass riding a year or two after your retirement, the captain on your flight might not be on the property right now.”

I was the baby of my class at Piedmont, so wouldn’t have a choice. I wanted a F-28 F/O slot anywhere so I wouldn’t have to go to Piedmont’s infamous 727 F/E school. Of course I was assigned 727 F/E and it was the hardest I’ve ever worked in a school. But it was a great education and I’m so glad I had the experience.

Welcome to all our new guys, and enjoy the ride.