It’s a scam? Ummm, they deploy all the time. Get shot at. Mortared. Rocketed. Gone from their families for months at a time over holidays, birthdays, anniversaries etc. Risk their lives flying over hostile forces that will kill and torture them if captured. Yeah, it’s a scam. Kinda myopic and disrespectful view. Can their service and sacrifice work out as a positive with a civilian employer? Absolutely. Is it an affront to their civilian counterparts? I guess it is to you. Ask some of these military folks if it feels like a scam while they’re sitting in some $hithole with the “incoming sirens” wailing, knowing they’re not gonna see their loved ones for 3-6 months... If they come home in a box draped in a flag, as some do, was it a scam then? Do some get more lucky with timing as far as airline hiring, reaching mil retirement or deployment schedules? Certainly. You as a pilot, of any flavor, know this whole aviation business is so much “luck and timing” despite your road to being hired at a major airline. I’m not trying to sound elite, or disrespectful of your flying background, just hopefully paint a picture of a side you clearly don’t understand.[/QUOTE]

I do understand, did my 30yrs in the army/arng. Many of these guys are getting orders immediately after indoc to sit at the unit (not deployed) to take the sting out of first yr pay/seniority. Fact.

FedEx had a fairly big issue a couple years back. To say it doesn’t happen isn’t factual. To say or imply all abuse it isn’t factual. You both have probably valid points so let’s move to agree to disagree and stop the measuring contest. I know in today’s political world it’s not popular. However agreeing to disagree use to be common so why not do it now ;)

I do understand, did my 30yrs in the army/arng. Many of these guys are getting orders immediately after indoc to sit at the unit (not deployed) to take the sting out of first yr pay/seniority. Fact.[/QUOTE]

If they are on active duty orders they are subject to deployment and are needed or the orders wouldn’t be available. They’re still serving on active duty. So, they get orders to “sit at the unit” and you think they’re doing nothing? On “vacation orders” maybe? Lmfao! I didn’t know those existed in my 29 years. Maybe in the ARNG you experienced but not ANG or AFRES. Everyone I know on long term orders does an actual job/mission and works their ass off, way harder than they do at an airline job. Do they make decisions based on pay/time at home/what’s best for their families/retirement options etc? Sure! You wouldn’t? How is that a “scam”?

Yikes, didn't mean to open a can of worms.

I don't deny that some guys abuse the system, but that is not always the case. I think one aspect about all of this that the civilian pilots may not understand is that full time military pilots don't just fly airplanes, they have other jobs to make the squadrons run.

In my case my intent was to go to the airlines and be a traditional Guardsman. With that being said, our unit is hurting on full time bodies due to the airline hiring wave and my replacement is no longer able to take my job due to health issues. There is literally no one else to fill my position and it's a critical job.

I bring this up just to highlight the other aspects of managing 2 jobs that not everyone is probably aware of.

Don’t hate the player. Hate the game. That said, kind of a thoughtless move to get hired, show up to Indoc and drop a 5-6 year absence on your new employer. How many guys do we need to hire to get one guy to come to work?

I mean, don't look now...but you just hated on the player. Make up your mind. :D

Jest aside, I agree with you, but you are contradicting yourself. You can't hold both positions; they're mutually exclusive, since it's legal to exploit the benefit in said way(s).

As to your last rhetorical question, I just thought that was a given, and sort of par for the course when it came to airline work. Meaning, airline pilot is the only job I've witnessed in this life where people spend half a lifetime grinding it out for years, under undesirable pay and working conditions in many instances, elbowing each other on a rabid race to some seniority list just to get a job where the primary motivation is to develop an allergy to showing up to work. Paradoxical occupation, to say the least...:D

Yeah well I believe in the duality of man

I’ve always found the hypocrisy entertaining. Airline pilots hating other airline pilots for being able to game the system better. It seems mil leave is no worse than bidding a bunch of lines, only to drop them so that you can pick up time and a half pay over someone else, or just not work at all. You are still gaming the system in your favor to maximize pay or to benefit you in some way

There's a difference in gaming the airline via the contract and abusing a federal law in place to protect those who actually need it.

Seems like different shades of the same color. For those taking extended Mil leave, there is a definite loss of revenue with potentially more time away from home. Besides, our tax money in the order of $10M+ per person to train and continuously train/upgrade a mil pilot means I want to get my money’s worth as I hear there is a massive pilot shortage

Who complains about being able to drop your line to pickup?

I can see straight pickup of extra time with guys on furlough being ethically questionable but not what you’re describing.

How are the military guys dropping mil leave 'crapping on their bros', exactly? Have you seen a reduction in military hiring? I haven't. Or were you talking about them crapping on the civilian bros like yourself? How have you been affected, exactly?

Tell me, if you had the opportunity to get a seniority number and make 50-60k more than first year airline pay, plus spend more time at home with your family (vs sitting in a hotel room at a domicile away from home) - would you do it?

Or are you, 'cocktimusprime', such the company man - that you're going to tell your wife you're going to forfeit 50-60k that year plus time at home with her and the kids because you think it's the right thing to do?

Edit:

I'd like to caveat that in the above (former) example you'd continue to serve your country and work your ass off at your military squadron. You'd be flying a lot, and most likely have at least two extra jobs at your squadron outside of flying. For instance, creating the flying schedule each day and PROJO'ing an upcoming TDY. Not just sitting around in the vault. All completely allowable per USERRA law, btw.

They are "crapping" on everyone, regardless of background who actually intends to work for the job they applied for. Embedded military management has a soft spot for and preferential hiring for military pilots(50%!). Every other applicant, again, regardless of background, may be being overlooked to hire a pilot who has little to no intention of working for AA until they receive their military retirement. I get it, it's legal, you're my hero and "protected." Simply calling the practice OUT.

Part of the reason SWA "favored" military guys was they didn't take the health insurance, saving the company quite a bit of money. I'm not saying that is AA's thinking but interesting point nonetheless.

SWA also forcibly pairs military pilots with prior 121 hires because they don't know what they're doing in training.

Part of TWA's demise was a ton of employees on the books that never worked. 1 out of 4 if I remember correctly. AA isn't a government agency; it can run out of money, it can go bankrupt, everyone can lose their jobs, we must turn a profit to exist. A few of us have fairly vivid experiences of bankruptcies turning careers sour. If you want to flagrantly jeopardize that for your own selfish benefit then yes, you're putting everyone at risk.

I don't really see how "employing" someone who isn't getting paid is the same as paying people to not work though.

I mean I get it, it's kinda a dick move, but the company hasn't really indicated it has an issue with it.

You'd think you'd see the same prejudices at other carriers if it was an issue, especially at a place like SWA.

Moderators.... can we get these type of threads moved to the military forum? They are never productive and just turn into a stupid ****ing match that benefits no one...

I left it here because it's AA-specific.

Yeah... just look at all the constructive responses when you’d otherwise get valuable answers in the mil forum... good call bro... :rolleyes:

What does the training float at AA look like with 20% of the pilots coming and going out of currency? Returning to the school house when their seniority can hold another type only to bounce out again on leave so they don't have to sit reserve on it? How many more people does AA have to interview and employ as a result? Not just on the line, in the training center, HR, payroll, you name it.

The 'company' aka flight ops management doesn't have a problem with it because they come from the same background and view this as a flying club.

They never feel the heat of our shoddy financial performance until it comes time to hand out furlough notices, and even then the status quo is untouchable.

As a whole this is the systematic attitude problem that plagues this airline and sets it apart from companies like Southwest/Delta.

I’m going to bite, where did you get the 20% number? I’d like a reference please.

I hear what you're saying but isn't HR in charge of pilot hiring now? Plus I really don't think our mil guys are what is keeping us from making money like Delta and United.

The mil guys I flew with were all done with that lifestyle. They wanted to fly at AA full time. But they were also older. So I don't really have a gauge on how many do this and if it's a normal practice and how much it impacts us.

What does Southwest and Delta do differently than AA re: hiring and retaining military pilots? Please be specific. Thanks.

Most guys would rather work at AA as much as possible. It is unit dependent though. Some guys don’t have much choice, and have to go on long term orders. Most guys that have a choice, will choose the airline because it pays a heck of lot more. But there are lots of factors at work. They are balancing a three legged stool (Family, AAL, Reserve/Guard). Should be in that order theoretically, but has to be switched occasionally.

Also new guys to the reserves (fresh off Active Duty) still have a lot of mission hacker left in them. Takes some time to sort it all out and get things balanced.

Not true (the pairing part, not necessarily the we don’t know what we’re doing part).

Love the “I hate American” rhetoric and every problem here doesn’t exist and good ol’ Delta. You really think our number of military guys and gals who take long term leave is worse than Delta and SWA? Where do you get that data from? I can tell you from the 3 squadrons I have been a part of the exact numbers on long term mil leave.

AA - 5
Delta - 10 (granted one of those squadrons was near Atl)
United - 4
SWA - 5

Not saying we are the best or worst at it but don’t claim every other airline does it better without data. Definitely a few bad apples from the mil who take advantage of the legal loophole. The majority didn’t plan on taking long term when they left and did so because their unit needed them to and someone has to fill those full time spots. Since most guard and reserve pilots are airlines pilots, those full time slots will inevitably be filled by mostly airline guys.




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You spelled “because they know how to fly planes but aren’t familiar with 121 ops“ and “Carl Icahn” wrong in the above paragraphs so I fixed it for you.


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Were you too young to serve in the Armed Forces in the years after 9/11? Because, you know, you coulda had a win/win-type deal happening if you were a trained pilot anywhere in that timeframe. You could serve your country AND be able to “crap on” all kinds of “bros” going on long-term mil while at the same time doing absolutely nothing just “sitting at the squadron.” The world was your oyster and you blew it I suppose. I admit it’s hard to resist the glitz of the regionals, plus you would’ve had “no idea what you were doing” when you got to AA, so that would’ve been a bummer.


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No response from Varsity.

Tap out noted. You’re a fraud.

Southwest tends to be the most friendly of people exploring the MLOA envelope (if I may use a euphemism), based on my anecdotal experience in my last two squadrons. Other than that I would agree, I don't see AA differing too wildly from the mean across part 121 when it comes to junior folks exploiting the benefits of USERRA in airline employment.

about the only way I can think of that an airline could deter MLOA is to place a higher weight on or have a requirement for a certain amount of civilian(121 and 135) flying in the hiring process. this would have the effect of maybe getting fewer military pilots. this is very problematic for airlines though given the large number of pilots separating from the Armed service and I can't think of an airline that would do this (I think this would be a bad idea all around). USERRA is very clear that there is absolutely nothing your civilian employer can do if you choose to take long or short term mil leave as long as you do so within the guidelines of USERRA (which heavily favor members of the armed service over their employer). this was discussed on another thread in the UAL forum but at this point it is a cost that the Gov't is happy to make cooperations pay.

[QUOTE=GucciBoy;2916772]Were you too young to serve in the Armed Forces in the years after 9/11? Because, you know, you coulda had a win/win-type deal happening if you were a trained pilot anywhere in that timeframe. You could serve your country AND be able to “crap on” all kinds of “bros” going on long-term mil while at the same time doing absolutely nothing just “sitting at the squadron.” The world was your oyster and you blew it I suppose. I admit it’s hard to resist the glitz of the regionals, plus you would’ve had “no idea what you were doing” when you got to AA, so that would’ve been a bummer.

Sounds like you may have some regrets.

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Personal attack, classy.

Oh wow!

Flight instructors know how to fly airplanes, but aren't familiar with 121 ops. By your standards AA should hire them. Same boat as the .mil guys! :rolleyes:

Carl Ichan bought TWA in 1988. It went bankrupt and restructured in 1992 as a result of his raiding. The bankruptcy in the 2000's was a result of entirely different causes; 9/11 traffic decline, Too many unproductive employees, and debt related to a botched late 90's fleet renewal program. (sounds like a spitting image of AA today) But hey, don't let a little history get in the way of your opinion man!

What's different about SWA and Delta? Have you seen their hiring process? They hire people who show up and work hard no matter the circumstances, it's what propels their reputation and goodwill in the public domain. Do they have threads on APC asking when to dip out on their employer for personal benifit? No, they screened out those people.

Just to reiterate, you’re equating a CFI with someone who has thousands of hours of turbine (most likely a majority of that time PIC) because neither has flown 121? Solid argument there.

And TWA’s “unproductive employee” problems were related to underutilized maintenance personnel and overseas employees that were unable to be removed from payroll despite the drastic reduction in European flying by the airline, not military pilots going on leave.

Icahn took TWA private, saddled them with debt, remained a creditor after the 90s bankruptcy, and sold TWA segments at a loss via the internet for several years, but it was probably all the military pilots getting hired and dropping immediate long-term orders that took down the airline...

Also very hard to blame the bankruptcy on post-9/11 traffic declines when it happened in January of 2001. But, ya know, “don’t let a little history get in the way of your opinion man!”


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