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When to take long term Mil leave
Does anyone know the latest on when it's cool to take long term Mil leave (>1 yr)? I've heard everything from right after Indoc, after consolidation, and after probation. It sounds like AA is more lenient with this, just trying to find the right balance with my Guard job and the company without ****ing anyone off or ruining it for the bros. Thanks.
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drop your orders at the interview.
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Originally Posted by Fox 3 Close
(Post 2901074)
Does anyone know the latest on when it's cool to take long term Mil leave (>1 yr)? I've heard everything from right after Indoc, after consolidation, and after probation. It sounds like AA is more lenient with this, just trying to find the right balance with my Guard job and the company without ****ing anyone off or ruining it for the bros. Thanks.
To caveat that, my thinking was the same as yours, and I wanted to do things in good faith with both of my jobs. Just like everything in life, it depends on your situation. My goal was to consolidate before I went on mil leave because I did not want to go through training at AA for another month when I got back. My unit was willing to work with me on training and seasoning orders so it worked out for me. I consolidated and then went on mil leave. Bottom line, USERRA is a right not a privilege. If you have orders then you tell them you have orders and will not be at work. It is not a request. |
Originally Posted by HiFlyer992
(Post 2901109)
It is "cool" when it is required by your Guard unit. USERRA is there for a reason.
To caveat that, my thinking was the same as yours, and I wanted to do things in good faith with both of my jobs. Just like everything in life, it depends on your situation. My goal was to consolidate before I went on mil leave because I did not want to go through training at AA for another month when I got back. My unit was willing to work with me on training and seasoning orders so it worked out for me. I consolidated and then went on mil leave. Bottom line, USERRA is a right not a privilege. If you have orders then you tell them you have orders and will not be at work. It is not a request. |
Originally Posted by Fox 3 Close
(Post 2901113)
Thanks for the response. The unit has a requirement, but has some flexibility as to not tarnish our relationship. I get the legalities of USERRA, but I don't want to pop smoke immediately unless the company prefers it.
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Concur. It is your right. Do it whenever you need to. But if you have flexibility and your unit will work with you, wait until you have completed IOE and gotten your 100 hours consolidation. Company would probably prefer that and it’s less overall pain for you, too.
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Thanks for the responses guys, that helps a lot. Pretty consistent with what I've been hearing.
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Originally Posted by HiFlyer992
(Post 2901165)
During indoc and the chief pilot visit, they both said they would prefer you to wait atleast until after consolidation before long term mil leave if you can control that. Sorry I didn't say that in my initial reply.
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I think you should serve out your commitment and not “welfare queen” off your private sector employer :p
Edit: Not personal. Just keep in mind when another citizen utilizes their rights inshrined in law that they are not takers. I.e. don’t hate the player |
Originally Posted by contrails12
(Post 2902516)
I think you should serve out your commitment and not “welfare queen” off your private sector employer :p
Edit: Not personal. Just keep in mind when another citizen utilizes their rights inshrined in law that they are not takers. I.e. don’t hate the player |
Originally Posted by PRS Guitars
(Post 2902576)
It’s not easy balancing the three legged stool (family, American, Reserve gig). In a year or 2 he’ll be doing everything he can to work less at the AF job. It’s a lot more work for a lot less pay. I even know guys who’ve simply quit the Reserve job.
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I agree with contrails. A LOT of guys getting hired at AA with hardly any intention of working until they get their military retirement. Kind of craps on your “bros” as a few have mentioned. We all appreciate your service, but it’s a double-dipping racket.
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I guess this will drive the requirement to hire even more new pilots.
Also, how can you blame the individuals who are doing this? It is legal and the difference to their families is huge. Who wouldn’t take an extra few years of seniority, legally, if able? To say you wouldn’t do the same thing is hard to believe. It’s simple human nature. BTW I’m not one of these lucky individuals, I’m just not mad at them. It is the system. |
I get it, but it seems disingenuous to apply for a job you have no intention of working . . . until you wrap up your military obligation. There are applicants who are being picked over for a person who doesn’t intend to fly for AA- yet. As a civilian I’m not allowed by AA to do any outside flying for hire/compensation. But the guard guys are protected by the military management we have nestled deep into our(dare I say) ranks.
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It has nothing to due with management. It is simply US law that protects them.
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But it is our management who hires them at a larger percentage than any other type of applicant!
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Originally Posted by cocktimusprime
(Post 2904105)
I get it, but it seems disingenuous to apply for a job you have no intention of working . . . until you wrap up your military obligation. There are applicants who are being picked over for a person who doesn’t intend to fly for AA- yet. As a civilian I’m not allowed by AA to do any outside flying for hire/compensation. But the guard guys are protected by the military management we have nestled deep into our(dare I say) ranks.
These are the people protecting you and your family. Take a step back and think about that before you insult their character for “taking” a job from a non-mil pilot. For every Guard/Reserve pilot willing to forego the much better lifestyle of an airline pilot to continue to serve, the retention of their seniority and a military retirement are the least you can do to say thanks. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by cocktimusprime
(Post 2904105)
I get it, but it seems disingenuous to apply for a job you have no intention of working . . . until you wrap up your military obligation. There are applicants who are being picked over for a person who doesn’t intend to fly for AA- yet. As a civilian I’m not allowed by AA to do any outside flying for hire/compensation. But the guard guys are protected by the military management we have nestled deep into our(dare I say) ranks.
To say the "guard guys are protected by military management..." is a pretty ignorant statement. US military flight training is arguably one of the best pilot training processes in the world. Maybe this is why the airlines like a hire a few of them. |
I knew it wouldn't take long to devolve into "how dare you insult military pilots," "military pilots are the best," and my favorite "we protect your family!" I've flown with many military-trained pilots over my last 14 years. They're no better or worse than any other professionally-trained aviator. I stand by my previous statement that it's a double-dipping racket, especially by those who avoid commuting for reserve with mil leave until they can hold what they want. P.S.- I'm married to a retired Army veteran so please spare me the education on how the reserve works. Even she thinks it's a racket!
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Originally Posted by cocktimusprime
(Post 2904999)
I knew it wouldn't take long to devolve into "how dare you insult military pilots," "military pilots are the best," and my favorite "we protect your family!" I've flown with many military-trained pilots over my last 14 years. They're no better or worse than any other professionally-trained aviator. I stand by my previous statement that it's a double-dipping racket, especially by those who avoid commuting for reserve with mil leave until they can hold what they want. P.S.- I'm married to a retired Army veteran so please spare me the education on how the reserve works. Even she thinks it's a racket!
First, you nailed your screen name. Second, how do you work the rudder while you’re wearing those clown shoes? Much respect to your wife. Too bad I can’t respect her enough for the both of you. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by GucciBoy
(Post 2904352)
These are the people protecting you and your family. Take a step back and think about that before you insult their character for “taking” a job from a non-mil pilot. For every Guard/Reserve pilot willing to forego the much better lifestyle of an airline pilot to continue to serve, the retention of their seniority and a military retirement are the least you can do to say thanks.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Retired guard guy here. It is a racket to do indoc and then “poof” disappear for a couple of years to avoid first yr pay/build seniority. Not sure how you can even stop it but its a racket for sure. These guys arr not deploying overseas, they are hanging out at the unit. Once again, stupid conversation because how do you stop it?
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Originally Posted by AAfng
(Post 2905164)
Retired guard guy here. It is a racket to do indoc and then “poof” disappear for a couple of years to avoid first yr pay/build seniority. Not sure how you can even stop it but its a racket for sure. These guys arr not deploying overseas, they are hanging out at the unit. Once again, stupid conversation because how do you stop it?
It’s absolutely their right but other pilots are allowed to have an opinion on it. I’m guessing there are other places to ask this question other than a public forum. |
Originally Posted by Floobs
(Post 2905094)
Protecting from what?
A person that would ask this question would logically be in favor of dissolving the military. Are you that person? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by GucciBoy
(Post 2905317)
A person that would ask this question would logically be in favor of dissolving the military. Are you that person?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Varsity
(Post 2905331)
In most western countries people realize the military has become political enforcement tool, and the USA is probably the poster child.
So you are saying the military offers no protection to the nation and it’s populace? Because when you read your post and the previous post I replied to, that’s what it sounds like you’re saying. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by GucciBoy
(Post 2905336)
So you are saying the military offers no protection to the nation and it’s populace? Because when you read your post and the previous post I replied to, that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Even suggesting this provokes a heretic level response from most members of the military. |
Originally Posted by AverageCoffee
(Post 2905216)
A fair amount of the Air Force pilots in class openly talked about when to “drop orders”. Reasons ranged from the already stated- not sitting reserve, commuting, or until seniority could hold PHX...
It’s absolutely their right but other pilots are allowed to have an opinion on it. I’m guessing there are other places to ask this question other than a public forum. It's an open secret, it's discussed widely in reserve circles, and I personally have no particular motivation to put effort in ensuring civi only pilots never become aware of the practice. It's a legal loophole plain and simple, and good bad or indifferent, it's the law. But as you said, people should also have the freedom to be critical of it without being accused of lack of patriotism. I'll be the first one to push back on that "you can't be critical of the military as a civilian" canard. On a personal level, the one thing I have the most objection to is the VA disability payment and rating abuse. This encompasses more than pilots mind you, it's an at-large national problem imo but I digress. I do think current MLOA benefit retainment allowances is ripe for abuse; it is abused, and it's legal. That's my opinion of course, which doesn't matter. For whatever it's worth, there are other ways of splitting the middle on this issue without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. IMO, if USERRA protected seniority accrual, but did not protect longevity pay accrual, this problem would vanish overnight. I think that would be a reasonable compromise. I can hear the blood curling screech from the MLOA bat caves though. Not my fight, just saying there's other ways to do this without creating polarization. To each their own. |
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
(Post 2905396)
Indeed. Look, basically people are speaking the quiet parts out loud in here, and some are gonna get miffed about it. It's not that surprising, in what is essentially is a MLOA echo chamber.
It's an open secret, it's discussed widely in reserve circles, and I personally have no particular motivation to put effort in ensuring civi only pilots never become aware of the practice. It's a legal loophole plain and simple, and good bad or indifferent, it's the law. But as you said, people should also have the freedom to be critical of it without being accused of lack of patriotism. I'll be the first one to push back on that "you can't be critical of the military as a civilian" canard. On a personal level, the one thing I have the most objection to is the VA disability payment and rating abuse. This encompasses more than pilots mind you, it's an at-large national problem imo but I digress. I do think current MLOA benefit retainment allowances is ripe for abuse; it is abused, and it's legal. That's my opinion of course, which doesn't matter. For whatever it's worth, there are other ways of splitting the middle on this issue without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. IMO, if USERRA protected seniority accrual, but did not protect longevity pay accrual, this problem would vanish overnight. I think that would be a reasonable compromise. I can hear the blood curling screech from the MLOA bat caves though. Not my fight, just saying there's other ways to do this without creating polarization. To each their own. This is how you make an argument, people. I still disagree, but this is infinitely more thought provoking and defensible than “the military doesn’t protect us” and “the military is, like, just a political arm of the government, man.” A few things: As long as the person on mil leave is performing mil duty in any capacity, there is no “abuse” taking place. And for the vast majority of guard/reserve pilots, taking mil leave is a very bad deal. I take a significant pay cut every time I have to drop mil. So I’m working harder and making less money, and I don’t know of very many people for whom this isn’t the case. Lastly, even if you think it’s being abused (it’s not), and even if you think it’s unfair (debatable at best), it’s a known quantity to everyone going in. My main point of contention is that no one should be criticizing someone for exercising a right that is known to everyone. You can criticize the policy, but don’t blame someone when they utilize it, especially when that person has made personal sacrifices for the good of their fellow citizens. You know, don’t hate the player and all that. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
If the company had a problem with it then they would tweak their hiring metrics to maybe not hire as many mil or reserve guys. You know they know, they know you know they know, etc.
In other words, it's really not something to get upset about IMO. It's a harmless practice and if China were to launch a ground attack on Taiwan or Hong Kong tomorrow, guess who is going over there? Not me...I'll be at home on my sofa. |
Originally Posted by GucciBoy
(Post 2905317)
A person that would ask this question would logically be in favor of dissolving the military. Are you that person?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Name User
(Post 2905436)
Not me...I'll be at home on my sofa.
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Originally Posted by Floobs
(Post 2905782)
Considering that us military has done more harm than good in the pay few decades (Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan) yes I think the world and the us population would be better off if that money was used domestically. We don’t need the first and second largest air forces in the world.
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Originally Posted by DarinFred
(Post 2905819)
Yep! Probably furloughed...
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Originally Posted by GucciBoy
(Post 2905414)
This is how you make an argument, people.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk None of my posts have disrespected the military/guard people. I simply stated how myself and MANY pilots feel about it. I order you to kindly unwad your panties. |
Originally Posted by cocktimusprime
(Post 2907578)
Bwahahaha! Says the guy who immediately aims low and questions a civilian’s ability to work a rudder with “clown shoes?” And then insults me by suggesting only military folks deserve his respect(my wife). Really shows your bias, Gucci.
None of my posts have disrespected the military/guard people. I simply stated how myself and MANY pilots feel about it. I order you to kindly unwad your panties. So saying that these pilots are “crapping on their bros” isn’t an insult? Disagree. As to me “immediately aiming low,” my first reply to your post was simply to advise you and everyone else who shares the sentiment that guard/reserve pilots are deserving of ire for taking a small advantage from their continued service to take a step back and realize that they are choosing to do something that you chose not to do, and in so doing deserve the protections/advantages afforded them by USERRA. I didn’t imply that you were clownish until you replied to my message saying that it was “disingenuous” for guard/reserve pilots to do so. To recap, you DID disrespect military pilots when you said that taking a legal LOA to serve in a military capacity amounts to defecating on their fellow pilots, and I DID NOT immediately aim low when I insinuate that you wear shoes that are inordinately larger than your feet, and in so doing might have difficulty landing in a crosswind. You and I are just two people on an Internet forum, so I admit I don’t know enough about you to make any character judgments, but I’m sorry I can’t respect you if you admit that you think that guard/reserve pilots are acting in bad faith when they go on mil leave to do a job you are either too selfish or too chickensh*t to do yourself.
Originally Posted by cocktimusprime
(Post 2904105)
I get it, but it seems disingenuous to apply for a job you have no intention of working . . . until you wrap up your military obligation. There are applicants who are being picked over for a person who doesn’t intend to fly for AA- yet. As a civilian I’m not allowed by AA to do any outside flying for hire/compensation. But the guard guys are protected by the military management we have nestled deep into our(dare I say) ranks.
Originally Posted by cocktimusprime
(Post 2903743)
I agree with contrails. A LOT of guys getting hired at AA with hardly any intention of working until they get their military retirement. Kind of craps on your “bros” as a few have mentioned. We all appreciate your service, but it’s a double-dipping racket.
Originally Posted by cocktimusprime
(Post 2904999)
I knew it wouldn't take long to devolve into "how dare you insult military pilots," "military pilots are the best," and my favorite "we protect your family!" I've flown with many military-trained pilots over my last 14 years. They're no better or worse than any other professionally-trained aviator. I stand by my previous statement that it's a double-dipping racket, especially by those who avoid commuting for reserve with mil leave until they can hold what they want. P.S.- I'm married to a retired Army veteran so please spare me the education on how the reserve works. Even she thinks it's a racket!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by AAfng
(Post 2905164)
Retired guard guy here. It is a racket to do indoc and then “poof” disappear for a couple of years to avoid first yr pay/build seniority. Not sure how you can even stop it but its a racket for sure. These guys arr not deploying overseas, they are hanging out at the unit. Once again, stupid conversation because how do you stop it?
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Originally Posted by cocktimusprime
(Post 2907578)
Bwahahaha! Says the guy who immediately aims low and questions a civilian’s ability to work a rudder with “clown shoes?” And then insults me by suggesting only military folks deserve his respect(my wife). Really shows your bias, Gucci.
None of my posts have disrespected the military/guard people. I simply stated how myself and MANY pilots feel about it. I order you to kindly unwad your panties. It’s a scam? Ummm, they deploy all the time. Get shot at. Mortared. Rocketed. Gone from their families for months at a time over holidays, birthdays, anniversaries etc. Risk their lives flying over hostile forces that will kill and torture them if captured. Yeah, it’s a scam. Kinda myopic and disrespectful view. Can their service and sacrifice work out as a positive with a civilian employer? Absolutely. Is it an affront to their civilian counterparts? I guess it is to you. Ask some of these military folks if it feels like a scam while they’re sitting in some $hithole with the “incoming sirens” wailing, knowing they’re not gonna see their loved ones for 3-6 months... If they come home in a box draped in a flag, as some do, was it a scam then? Do some get more lucky with timing as far as airline hiring, reaching mil retirement or deployment schedules? Certainly. You as a pilot, of any flavor, know this whole aviation business is so much “luck and timing” despite your road to being hired at a major airline. I’m not trying to sound elite, or disrespectful of your flying background, just hopefully paint a picture of a side you clearly don’t understand. |
In my observation the entitlement mentality is confined to commissioned officers/pilots. Plenty of airline pilots are still in the guard/reserves in pogue units. I've never heard one brag/plot reserve duties to intentionally conflict with undesirable flying obligations to the company.
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Standard, some bad apples on all sides when u have a barrel/bushel/basket of 15,000.
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