Senior FO vs Junior CA
06-09-2022, 05:08 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,294
Originally Posted by Al Czervik
When you reach Uber seniority levels like yourself you don’t get to comment. It’s like Bill Gates discussing the plight of the poor. 
06-09-2022, 06:41 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2020
Posts: 378
Originally Posted by R57 relay
A bit overreaching, isn't that? I doubt you know his schedule, his family life etc.
I don't know aa73 personally, but have kept up through social media. I feel very confident in saying that being a CA is important to him personally has nothing to do with what anyone else thinks.
From a recent thread, I think that I share more with him than you...but do you know what? That's okay, because we are all different and the best place to work would be the one that allows the flexibility for each to seek that out.
In my "Jet" career I have been a F/E, F/O on many aircraft, F/B (or whatever AA calls it), and CA on 5 types, currently CKP. I've enjoyed aspects of all them, but did not like the "deadheading for dollars" across the Atlantic. I do not subscribe to the theory of "do something you love and you will never work a day in your life" bit. I grew up around the industry, still love it, love to fly, but I work. A lot. Too much, and that is changing.
The one thing I agree with is that family comes first. But coming first doesn't mean exclusive. My kids knew that if all possible Dad would be there, but Dad had to work. I worked and planned to be there as much as possible and they will tell you that I was there far more than there peer's parents were, but not all the time. And that the world doesn't revolve around you is an important lesson.
One thing is for sure-If person doesn't want to be a CA, they shouldn't be. They won't be good at it, and should stay in the other seats. I've seen quite a few of those that decided to make the move late, for the wrong reasons and it didn't go well.
I can't understand why someone would not want to be a CA. Not at any cost, but the goal. I guess AA73 and I are just wired that way.
I don't know aa73 personally, but have kept up through social media. I feel very confident in saying that being a CA is important to him personally has nothing to do with what anyone else thinks.
From a recent thread, I think that I share more with him than you...but do you know what? That's okay, because we are all different and the best place to work would be the one that allows the flexibility for each to seek that out.
In my "Jet" career I have been a F/E, F/O on many aircraft, F/B (or whatever AA calls it), and CA on 5 types, currently CKP. I've enjoyed aspects of all them, but did not like the "deadheading for dollars" across the Atlantic. I do not subscribe to the theory of "do something you love and you will never work a day in your life" bit. I grew up around the industry, still love it, love to fly, but I work. A lot. Too much, and that is changing.
The one thing I agree with is that family comes first. But coming first doesn't mean exclusive. My kids knew that if all possible Dad would be there, but Dad had to work. I worked and planned to be there as much as possible and they will tell you that I was there far more than there peer's parents were, but not all the time. And that the world doesn't revolve around you is an important lesson.
One thing is for sure-If person doesn't want to be a CA, they shouldn't be. They won't be good at it, and should stay in the other seats. I've seen quite a few of those that decided to make the move late, for the wrong reasons and it didn't go well.
I can't understand why someone would not want to be a CA. Not at any cost, but the goal. I guess AA73 and I are just wired that way.
I have had some CA's say over and over on a trip how I should upgrade and how great it is over in that seat and what a big mistake I am making. I always find it amusing because I have already been there, done that and this job doesn't define me. It also is silly to make statements (you didnt say it but it is said elsewhere or implied) that FO's aren't even part of the crew....just a bunch of gear monkeys which I also find to be stupid because the difference between this 121 gig and say the military/corporate is that a CA in the 121 world really doesn't have that much ability to make their own decisions and color outside the lines. It is all in black and white and pretty canned. I fail to see the glamour in it. The pay I totally get and have ran the numbers, it is a hefty raise but the glamour or increased feelings of self worth? Naw, I just don't see it but maybe that's because I am just a stupid gear monkey.
With that said, I need to get back to planning my 4th of July blowout party since there is ZERO chance I am working that weekend. Also, got to call my Dad back about our Father Days plans to go boating. Those are the things that get me motivated. Taxiing around ORD and being the Da Man? Naw, I will pass until I know TTOT isn't going away and I hit 65% on the CA list, then I might reconsider. Until then, I will keep bidding what I want and getting summer vacations.
06-09-2022, 06:46 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,123
How “late” is too late to make a move? Do you have data to back that up?
Of course most of us want to be CAs of some flavor some day- a goal, as you said. It’s just that junior NB CA, for many, isn’t very appealing. Commute to reserve to potentially take a pay cut, especially given the premium flowing to NB FOs? Working most weekends and holidays for years, after having their pick of trips and days worked? We all have our threshold at which an upgrade to NB CA makes sense. For many, that’s a long ways past the first opportunity. Isn’t it great that there’s a niche for everyone, and upgrade isn’t 7-10 years a la SW?
Of course most of us want to be CAs of some flavor some day- a goal, as you said. It’s just that junior NB CA, for many, isn’t very appealing. Commute to reserve to potentially take a pay cut, especially given the premium flowing to NB FOs? Working most weekends and holidays for years, after having their pick of trips and days worked? We all have our threshold at which an upgrade to NB CA makes sense. For many, that’s a long ways past the first opportunity. Isn’t it great that there’s a niche for everyone, and upgrade isn’t 7-10 years a la SW?
06-09-2022, 06:48 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2022
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by Armyguy
Here is the problem:
your great day as a NB CA is on a holiday, say 4th of July while my lousy NB FO day is on a Tuesday. Bidding upper third of a bid status is very nice.
I love hearing CA's I fly with complain about their schedule "I have worked 12 straight Thanksgivings", you do that crap to yourself
Nobody, I mean literally nobody, in your personal life gives a crap if you are a CA at AA, they just want you to be present in their lives. Whether that is children, parents, siblings, friends, etc. They know I am a pilot, they know I work for AA but they dont care I am not a CA. How stupid. Now, when I fly with the newly upgraded Airbus guy on the 737 who says we need a gen dec for puerto rico or argue with me over what the door code is to get in ("I called maintenance since we are locked out of the cockpit"" then I question my sanity for not upgrading however 99.9% of CA's are great so those days are few and far between.
your great day as a NB CA is on a holiday, say 4th of July while my lousy NB FO day is on a Tuesday. Bidding upper third of a bid status is very nice.
I love hearing CA's I fly with complain about their schedule "I have worked 12 straight Thanksgivings", you do that crap to yourself
Nobody, I mean literally nobody, in your personal life gives a crap if you are a CA at AA, they just want you to be present in their lives. Whether that is children, parents, siblings, friends, etc. They know I am a pilot, they know I work for AA but they dont care I am not a CA. How stupid. Now, when I fly with the newly upgraded Airbus guy on the 737 who says we need a gen dec for puerto rico or argue with me over what the door code is to get in ("I called maintenance since we are locked out of the cockpit"" then I question my sanity for not upgrading however 99.9% of CA's are great so those days are few and far between.
06-09-2022, 08:02 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 589
Originally Posted by J3nkums
Agree 100%. My father was an airline pilot and he was that guy that took the first upgrade and commuted to reserve and always moved up to the next bigger aircraft as a CA never enjoying relative senority. It was noticed growing up and there was a lot he missed. I will never do that to my children. He wishes he could go back and do it different but that's life. At the end of your life how many hours you have and how many type rating you have won't mean anything compared to the time lost.
06-10-2022, 06:12 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,890
Originally Posted by Armyguy
Here is the problem:
your great day as a NB CA is on a holiday, say 4th of July while my lousy NB FO day is on a Tuesday. Bidding upper third of a bid status is very nice.
I love hearing CA's I fly with complain about their schedule "I have worked 12 straight Thanksgivings", you do that crap to yourself
Nobody, I mean literally nobody, in your personal life gives a crap if you are a CA at AA, they just want you to be present in their lives. Whether that is children, parents, siblings, friends, etc. They know I am a pilot, they know I work for AA but they dont care I am not a CA. How stupid. Now, when I fly with the newly upgraded Airbus guy on the 737 who says we need a gen dec for puerto rico or argue with me over what the door code is to get in ("I called maintenance since we are locked out of the cockpit"" then I question my sanity for not upgrading however 99.9% of CA's are great so those days are few and far between.
your great day as a NB CA is on a holiday, say 4th of July while my lousy NB FO day is on a Tuesday. Bidding upper third of a bid status is very nice.
I love hearing CA's I fly with complain about their schedule "I have worked 12 straight Thanksgivings", you do that crap to yourself
Nobody, I mean literally nobody, in your personal life gives a crap if you are a CA at AA, they just want you to be present in their lives. Whether that is children, parents, siblings, friends, etc. They know I am a pilot, they know I work for AA but they dont care I am not a CA. How stupid. Now, when I fly with the newly upgraded Airbus guy on the 737 who says we need a gen dec for puerto rico or argue with me over what the door code is to get in ("I called maintenance since we are locked out of the cockpit"" then I question my sanity for not upgrading however 99.9% of CA's are great so those days are few and far between.
Today, In order to be a senior WB FO I’d have to commute, thus missing out on more days away from my family.
That said, I made darn sure my upgrade didn’t jeapordize my family life, and it never has - I’m lucky enough to hold it in base with no commuting and a good schedule. I would never advocate for someone to chase the upgrade sitting reserve commuting half way across the country - that’s nuts.
Look, it’s an easy choice for me. I can drive to work and hold the left seat as a bottom third line holder.. or I can commute up to NY or PHL and be a top third WB FO line holder. NB CA provides the most money for the most time off and best QOL. That’s just my situation. The left seat also happens to be a lot more fun than the right seat.
Its not that being a CA is “important to me”, but rather its about making the most amount of $$$ for the least time away from my family. NB CA checks that box for me… and it’s a ton of fun to boot.
When I fly with FOs that ask me my opinion on their next career move, I always tell them to pick the bid status that provides the most time off for the most money. If you get a choice in that decision, I’d always choose the left seat in a heart beat. But I never discourage them to try out WB FO if they’ve never done that gig.
06-10-2022, 07:26 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,123
Originally Posted by Saabs
Missing football is a big no no at my house. Don’t upgrade until you can not miss football
06-10-2022, 08:39 AM
#30
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Joined APC: Mar 2022
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by greatmovieistar
The captain seat isn't for everybody. Nobody should be forcing FOs to take on that leadership role they are not yet ready for, you know, for "QOL" reasons.
