From the APA board, name withheld by request

So now AA jumpseaters are being harassed? This deal hasn't even come close to actually occuring and US pilots are putting together combined seniority lists? Jeez.

What relevance does DOH have, anyway? Who says any of that would apply, if the merger actually occured?

This must be authentic. A hoax would not contain so many errors in grammar, spelling, and punctuation. :p

This post was placed today, maybe an Aa guy can verify for all of us

cactiboss inciting HATE again! let's see the link...

I doubt it. I saw the list commuting up from Miami this week. I thought it was a joke, but apparently not. Either way, it is just a pipe-dream. Does anyone really think that APA will just willingly give up a bunch of their wide-body seats to us? Really? The list I saw put our junior narrow-body Captains (bottom block-holders and reserves) able to hold 767 Captain in any base and 777 Captain in ORD or MIA. Somehow, I just don't see APA agreeing to that -- fence or no fence.

So, why is anyone even wasting the time or energy worrying about this??? As someone said above, the deal isn't even close to done yet, and we're already dividing the pilot groups over irrelevant issues...

Sometimes I think that we pilots are our own worst enemies.....

Authentic. Grammar and the like aside, as several others have posted, this "list" is out there. It has no basis in reality, just someone's wet dream. Again, shouldn't get worked up about it at this point. My advice is if someone shows you this list as anything other then amusement, you should simply laugh. This "merger" appears highly likely, but who controls it and when is still unknown. Even if it does occur, it's possible it may involve U itself being broken up. It's possible certain segments of U will be sold to others or even certain segments of AA. I don't think even the players know full well what they would have or want.

Will this be a work in progress or is someone formulating a finished product via a plan ?

If the former, it's even more likely it will morph and change as time goes on. It will take years to complete to one cohesive carrier and more then likely those who are clinging to such a list will have probably blown their brains out by then. :rolleyes:

Dude its just CACTI stirring up the pot trying to pit the east US pilots against AA and the WHOLE dam world. This dude severely needs a girlfriend. The fact is no one can predict the outcome of this transaction. Besides the inherent FLAWS that corrupted the Nic have now been fixed. 3 arbiters composing a list that will be based on Mac/Bond. The final product will be binding on all THREE groups.
As in all walks of life, there are those that choose to stir the pot and bring chaos and uncertainty to events that no one can predict. Besides, if the Mayans are correct, that 7 year fence, and the whole merger thing will be moot.:D

Ummm, dude............isn't this what I've been saying ?


Not sure what you're referring to here.

My understanding is that the internal U list will be one list prior to any SLI process with AA and then THAT merger SLI will be binding on ONE group......that being AA pilots represented by the APA, that group comprising of former US Airways pilots in the seniority order of that one U list submitted prior to the merger SLI process.

I think that 12/21 drop dead date (for us all) has already been debunked. ;)

What about the girlfriend thing... You do agree with me right?

"Your Understanding", according to Your WEST sources..
Carry on...Nothing else to discuss here.....

For you commuting AA guys, west crewed flt numbers are 699 and below. Flight numbers above 700 are east crews, spread the word.

Spread the HATE!! Hello CACTI. Hows life treating ya?

How is that spreading the hate Blew?

Not concerned with his romantic persuits. Also not interested in being drawn into a squabble between you guys.

No, NOT any "west" sources. You know, for someone trying to convince me that it's the "other" side being excessively emotional and the instigators, you're now weakening your argument with every post.

You know what they say when you've dug yourself into a hole, right ? :rolleyes:

Well said.

1. The East/AA DOH list exists. I have a copy. I find it comical in the extreme ... it doesn't show ANY West pilots, in any order. I retain it only as a reference to the general seniority profile of the AA group. (As a US pilot, I can see the East and West lists, as well as the Nicolau and USAPA lists, anytime I wish via official sources.) I wouldn't ascribe too much ill intent to its existence, though ... I've seen would-be DOH lists floating around the internet for every merger since AA/TWA.

2. Anyone who has been on here for very long should be painfully aware that Blew (E) and cactiboss (W) are the two biggest US Airways agents provocateur on this site. They both manage to state their cases in such a way as to alienate as many people as possible! There are several other representatives of both our East and West groups who can state their positions far more diplomatically.

3. It's pretty darn clear to me that a mutual agreement will not be forthcoming, and binding (by Federal Law) arbitration per McCaskill-Bond will determine our ultimate seniority. The only question seems to be what will be presented to the arbitration panel for US ... the Nicolau list, or the separate East, West, and third-lister lists. Nobody seems to want to say so out loud, but I think everyone (company, West, USAPA, etc.) is waiting for Judge Silver to answer that question, then whichever side loses out can blame the "big, bad Federal Judge" for their screw job. [For the record, I firmly believe that the Nicolau will be the list when Judge Silver is done, based upon my own - extensive - research and reading.]

Beyond that, bickering about most of this is a giant waste of time!

I do believe that the judge will uphold the Nicolau. However, it will be mute when APA and USAPA negotiate a DOH list for the merger.

Well, it was "binding" (by federal law) arbitration that produced the Nicolau seniority list, wasn't it ?

I too think it will likely be the Nicolau list that ultimately represents U pilots when any AA/U SLI occurs.

What leads you to believe that the APA would "negotiate" with USAPA to produce a integrated seniority list going by DOH ?

That would simply be validating what is being carried around like a linus-style security blanket by a few of the east pilots. Any SLI of AA pilots and U pilots (again, likely represented by the Nic award) will not be a negotiated settlement between unions (one of which will not exist), it will be via arbitration.

If APA and USAPA mutually agreed to staple the west pilots to the bottom of the combined list then wouldnt that be legal? I dont think it would be 'right' or probable of happening, but I also dont think DOH will happen.

Nope! It was a Federal arbitrator working as an independent, towards reaching a AW/US SLI under ALPA merger policy. If it was "binding" by federal law, such as Mac/Bond, it would have been indicated by the 9th COA ruling, pertaining to the Addincton case. In fact the 9th stated that ALPA was free to vacate the Nic. And stated that a AW/US CBA might in fact be UN-RATIFIABLE Nic inclusive.
So, how could the Nic be the US list if a joint CBA was NEVER achieved??

Staple the west ?

I don't see that happening, but I do see fences.

Wow, east fantasy's alive and well. Of course the 9th said no such things, but hey severing statements out of their full paragraphs as a tool to change the context is something the easties (and their lawyers) have been deservedly accused of by more than one federal judge.

So enlighten us oh mighty Cacti. Can you PLEAZE post the full 9th ruling? So we may ALL see how wrong we (east) are..
Un-edited or altered of course....

So you're saying U east pilots did not AGREE to "binding" arbitration and in effect, just approved a process of "suggestion" by some guy who was trying to help ?

OK, fine. :rolleyes:

Be that as it may, it's my opinion that PRIOR to any SLI with AA pilots, U pilots will have a single seniority list in place. That means, if it's not the Nic, you'll have to invent one prior to any SLI with AA pilots or have one forced on you. Considering the fact USAPA will vaporize if there is any AA/U merger, I can't see any end-run mechanisms around any outcome you don't like in that merger SLI.

I'm all ears though to any schemes you think will allow the east minority to continue their 'bull in the china shop' philosophy.

The EAST pilots did agree to "binding arbitration" however, no one on the east or west could have predicted how LOPSIDED and un-fair to the east the Nic award would be. Therefore being that ALPA merger policy (and its process) failed to provide a FAIR and EQUITABLE SLI, were one pilot group would not benefit at the detriment of another, the east pilots have fought back a corrupted SLI award at great expense.
"bull in the china shop"? funny! I believe the new mechanism NOW in place Mac/Bond, will neuter the BULL. No more AA/TWA, or AW/US shenanigans.

First of all the Arbitration(TA) was a contract between west, east and the company, a contract that the east aims to change. All the 9th said is that it was not ripe until the list is in a contract because we won't know until then how much damage the west has suffered. Second, as of today the whole TA is in effect, not whatever parts usapa wishes to pick and choose, but the whole TA. It will remain in effect until it is modified by usapa and the company, you cannot dispute that. So if this merger happens, usapa will disappear and the APA will inherit the TA and DFR responsibility. The only thing keeping the Nic. from being implemented is the TA requirement of a single contract. How can the part requiring a single contract be "binding" and in effect yet the part saying the nicolau is the seniority list not be "binding"?

P.S. The 9th did not say that usapa was free to change the Nic. the 9th quoted judge wake's ruling which was " Usapa is as free as alpa was to change the Nic." So how free was alpa to change the Nic?

Actually, you DID NOT agree to binding arbitration. If you did, you'd have accepted the very fundemental foundation of the concept and the risk it may not turn out to your expectations. Thus, I believe the 'bull in the china shop' reference to be descriptively accurate.

As for the AA/TWA deal, I wasn't on the AA property then. What I do understand was that it was the acquisition of the assets of a TRULY bankrupt carrier (actually not its first) with approximately 2-3 months operating cash at its then current burn rate. As part of the acquisition, the acquiring carrier agreed to offer employment to the employees of the acquiree. The F/A's all got stapled, but although the AA contract efectively stipulated the same for pilots, the TWA pilots got a better deal with only about half being stapled (and many of them already on extended furlough).

That's an old and long squabble that will live on until all of us are taking a dirt nap. Many of those TWA pilots who were subsequently furloughed were given special consideration for American Eagle captains jobs at their TWA longevity scale (15-18 years). The Eagle pilots who paid for that with their captain seats at risk, subsequently lost their flow-thru rights (they took all the risk, but got none of the reward). A lot of pain to go around on that one. I see your mixing and matching of past conflict to stir the pot further, but the more you're arguing here, the worse you and the east look.

For pete's sake man, stop digging !

"Inherit the TA"? last I checked that "TA" is between AW/US/LCC. No were do I see a provision for a THREE PARTY TA. How does a new entity INHERIT a TA of which IT was never part of?

And there is the ignorance of your typical eastie. My friend, a successor union inherits ALL previous contracts and agreements, that is the law.

Self RATIONALIZATION. I guess those TWA pilots were at fault for TWA's downfall and therefore should be "lucky to have jobs at AA".
Define "truly bankrupt". I guess AA's present predicament is really not "bankrupt".
What if AA is in real trouble ,and perhaps a few months out from chap 7. Will you accept a STAPLE sli?
You keep referring to digging holes!! Just because I argue your logic does not make YOU righteous.
Question: Are you a NATIVE AAr or a FLOW-THRU?

...And what CONTRACT will the APA INHERIT may I ask...Some of us Ignoramus need to know.

They will inherit the same contract (ta) that usapa did. Sinking in yet?

Self rationalization................you mean like an entity who agrees to binding arbitration and then declares it non-binding after the ruling ?

That's a good one ! :p

The only reason AMR is in bankruptcy now is to butcher their labor costs. 5 billion in dead Presidents, a viable brand in a viable global network, multiple desirable assets including routes, slots and aircraft........yep, I'll stand out on a limb and declare TWA's situation then and AA's now to be apples and oranges.

If AA ever becomes what TWA is (and arguably under the current stand-alone plan, it just may), then I'd be lucky to get any employment at all. I'm a flow-thru............and before you lecture me on the aspects of that situation, do some research. On second thought, I know more about it then you could ever read or study. Please don't start digging another hole.........the one you've already dug is too deep as it is. ;)

You know Cacti, your a pretty sharp guy. How did you ever wound up working for a bottom feeder? Based on your unquestionable knowledge of labor law, I would expect more from you.
6 years later and the Nic is still, and will continue to be SHELVED!
Could you please enlighten US on the definition or purpose for a transition agreement.

Did you flow thru before or after the arbitration award? And if in fact you flowed after, how does it feel to prolong the furlough of a fellow EX TWA pilot. Funny how we can all rationalize and then call someone else WRONG!

I'm not that smart but have educated myself on the law as it relates to our situation. I know what you are getting at regarding the TA. You imply that the ta only applies to our merger with a new TA being negotiated between usapa and apa making our current TA disappear and the Nic. along with it, isn't that right? Now that would be another east fantasy that circulates in the east cockpits. First, you need a legitimate union reason to undo the nic. if usapa tries the west will get an injunction in a nano second, delaying everything until the apa takes over. Think about this, why would management and APA agree to replace usapa at the very first opportunity within their term sheet? Could it be they want to remove an impediment to a smooth merger? We all know that management filed the DJ because they were planning on this amr merge, why did they take the west side?

Well, I see you had to climb out of your old hole and start digging a new one. :cool:

I see no point in giving you more rocks to throw Andrew. For the record, individual flow-thru pilots had no control over the order-of-recall greivance filed by Eagle ALPA. Personally, at that time, I'd have been perfectly happy to remain at AE driving to work for $10K/month instead of commuting by air for $7K and let those who needed a job get one, but it wasn't my call.

With every post, you just radiate more and more class. The #1 reason most AA pilots are leery of U is Parker. The #2 is stomaching guys like you. My only advice for you at this point is not to let that floppy-eared pooch eat your AA/U DOH list. ;)